Hips a daisy..

Nothing like a bit of friendly controversy so I'll start this here to keep it off the show threads: On the subject of "Hips....." Please accept this as a view seeking other opinions and not just a personal drum-banging exercise. It's just my own view, granted, but that only.

I've been into dance all my life, one way or another and the late fifties were as tough as they come. That said, if you wanted to associate with girls, you danced and maybe took a drink rather than got plastered and then made a nuisance of yourself in a nightclub as happened when disco arrived (I'm talking primarily men here). Rock and roll or ballroom, we loved to dance. Most men who stick their chests out and decry dance as soft can't dance and don't have the guts to learn usually. We danced and no one laughed except humorously at times perhaps. So....

As a male dance lover, one thing that I absolutely do find irritating is that unless men who dance today impersonate Dorothy Lamour and Carmen Miranda of old, or Kylie Minouge currently, in latin dance, they get heavily punished by judges for not wildly exagerating what primarily is a female body action, ie their hips. Amongst other forms, I studied Spanish dance and flamenco for three years or so (as a student, I hasten to add), and macho is a real feature of such. Hip movement should be a normal action ( as most thing in dance should) and the absolute focus on men's hip-swinging is not only overdone, but also obsessively unfair in judging..in my view.

Granted, I'm the ghost of dance past, I willingly admit, but did Gene Kelly swing his hips like Cyd Charisse, or Fred Astaire like Ginger Rogers? Danny Kaye, Jimmy Cagney, George Sanders and too many other fine dancers to mention, danced naturally and brilliantly without their buttocks being the limelight feature of their performances. Fred Astaire was particularly adept at latin dances yet the focus was never on his rear. Today, if show contestants cant swing your backside like Balloo the Bear in Jungle Book, all four judges write them off, three excessively so in my opinion. Arlene Phillips was particularly obsessive in her personal choices based on almost slobbering over "sexy" males. the fabu-u-lus darling one and Silver tongued Italian Stallion also make no secret of where their focus is in male contestants. That is neither right or fair in competition. Male anatomy differs from the female, wildly so, and it shouldn't be used against them. It's actually a deterrent in those less talented as they tend to make themselves look figures of fun by overdoing it all. (p.s, I blame Patrick Swayze and John Travolta for not helping things..joking)

Give me a minute to adjust my neck on the block, then swing those axes...

Im sure in Miss Bennets era they did not swing or gyrate like a sex starved hyena
One stood up with a Lady and moved elegantly whilst keeping a stiff lip! Or hips!!
For latin yes a little sas shay may be requied but not to the point its all Hips hips hips!
I do agree with you Mr D rrgarding the poor male celeb's dilemna re hips

TANGOLERO wrote:
(....) I absolutely do find irritating is that unless men who dance today impersonate Dorothy Lamour and Carmen Miranda of old, or Kylie Minouge currently, in latin dance, they get heavily punished by judges for not wildly exagerating what primarily is a female body action, ie their hips.  (....)

Generally speaking, TANGOLERO, I have to agree with you. The one exception last night of course has to be Jake Wood whose hips did manage to move wildly yet his was nothing if not a macho performance.

Latin dances, most of them come from Latin America. The men in those countries have different shapes to a lovely Englishman, Tango. There is a film called White Men Don't Jump. 40 years ago people thought Chicken Chow Mein was Chinese food. As everyone has travelled and brought things back to the UK.....a sense of Latin has changed. Thanks to Youtube we can watch Jamaicans and Cubans dance. Even the 80 year old guys have got more swing and movement in their hips in a very relaxed way admittedly. They are doing social dancing not the heightened stuff that Strictly is selling. I am saying don't blame Mr. Swayze.

Twirlie wrote:

Generally speaking, TANGOLERO, I have to agree with you. The one exception last night of course has to be Jake Wood whose hips did manage to move wildly yet his was nothing if not a macho performance.

Have to agree. Jake's hip movements were there for all to see, yet it's unmistakably musculine. Also, ThomDoll did have some hip movements too, and it didn't look mincey to me either.

hatlady28 wrote:Latin dances, most of them come from Latin America.  The men in those countries have different shapes to a lovely Englishman, Tango.  There is a film called White Men Don't Jump.  40 years ago people thought Chicken Chow Mein was Chinese food.  As everyone has travelled and brought things back to the UK.....a sense of Latin has changed.  Thanks to Youtube we can watch Jamaicans and Cubans  dance.  Even the 80 year old guys have got more swing and movement in their hips in a very relaxed way admittedly.  They are doing social dancing not the heightened stuff that Strictly is selling. I am saying don't blame Mr. Swayze.

No serious disagreement Hatlady, and most of my posts have a healthy amount of tongue-in-cheek, although I'm totally serious about the overdoing it, part. I was/am a great fan of Patrick Swayze who in no way ever minced. He was a n excellent dancer, taught mainly by his professional dancer mother (as you probably know) . Dirty Dancing II was based in Havana and featured local music and dance.( Beside the point a little, I know, but I also have a decent collection of all kinds of Latin music and had the pleasure a few years ago of seeing The Buena Vista Social Club ensemble live in Manchester. That was really something, although several have since passed away). I also have seen "White Men "Can't" Jump" an American basketball film? Chow Mein is Mandarin Chinese for "Fried Noodles" whatever else is in the dish. Latins and Cubans, as you say, are very relaxed and tend to sway more than swing things. Is not the Carioca a good example of this? Even the women don't dance the frantic buttock locomotion that ballroom has become, but what is mainly natural in women needs to be a little different in men, at least in my opinion.

TANGOLERO wrote:
had the pleasure a few years ago of seeing The Buena Vista Social Club ensemble live in Manchester. That was really something, although several have since passed away). I also have seen "White Men "Can't" Jump" an American  basketball film? Latins and Cubans, as you say, are very relaxed and tend to sway more than swing things.

I saw the Buena Vista Social Club a few years ago too. Bet it was the same tour. Also have been to many different Tango, Salsa and Samba shows. As you say Tango, the Latinos (and Caribbeans) have a natural sway which rolls through the whole body. The pelvic hip thrusts and booty popping are a more recent 'fashion/music video' push. Even Pasha has said that the hip moves can be very varied from subtle to aggressive. I think the judges are looking for the latter. I think more emphasis on the correct Latin leg action would be useful, then the hips naturally follow. I don't think the celebs have learned how that specific dance hip action is created. Some may think you just gyrate your pelvis in a circle, shake 'what your mamma gave you', and Bob (or Fernandez) is your uncle

Interesting points Hatlady.

B4p wrote: I think the judges are looking for the latter. I think more emphasis on the correct Latin leg action would be useful, then the hips naturally follow. I don't think the celebs have learned how that specific dance hip action is created. Some may think you just gyrate your pelvis in a circle, shake 'what your mamma gave you', and Bob (or Fernandez) is your uncle

You beat me to it B4, this is exactly what I was going to say. I think many of the celebs mistakenly think it's about hip gyration but as I've picked up over the years it's more to do with alternate straightening and bending of the legs to make the hips go up and down.

Sid wrote:Interesting points Hatlady.



You beat me to it B4, this is exactly what I was going to say. I think many of the celebs mistakenly think it's about hip gyration but as I've picked up over the years it's more to do with alternate straightening and bending of the legs to make the hips go up and down.

True that. This is especially evident with Steve's cha-cha. Absolutely no hip action (the latin walk that creates the hip movement), but O la tried to make Steve do a lot of hip ROTATION (without using the balls of the feet on the floor).

Jake had natural hip action (i.e. he got the latin walk down pad) and he did some rather overt (perhaps for comic effect?) hip rotations. But done really well. I like especially the bits when he was holding Janette and doing some kind of a side by side rumba moves sped up 4x (the bit when he did the 'phone me?' side with his hands he was gesturing to his left side of the audience).

Really interesting points and I do agree that unless a male has a natural way of moving their hips it can look very over done and ridiculous and I also agree that by working on the correct leg and foot patterns first then the hips should follow on. The type of hip action also depends on which latin dance is being done - as someone has already said - it is not just about gyrating and shaking about, it can actually look very controlled when done by the pros.

cellar-door wrote:True that.

Don't think I 've forgotten you announcing on DS about practicing the correct hip action in front of the mirror in just your black pants!!!

mauveangel09"]Really interesting points and I do agree that unless a male has a natural way of moving their hips it can look very over done and ridiculous.

That, in a nutshell is what it's about. You can't take "natural" hip action out of dance; do that in things like the rumba there would be nothing left but a walkabout. That said, overcooking is just as bad as not putting any in there. The toe/sole action almost creates the action unconsciously, as does the side-slides of cha-cha. The sort of overcooking I mean is that that draws comments from C raig like "Those hips could crack walnuts". When the action in question is just overtly "sexy", then it defeats its dance purpose. I thought Jake's dance was very good, excellent even, but it was the whole content and execution that did it for me, not just a Balloo the Bear imitation.

Totally get you Mr T. Sometimes the judges can be guilty of encouraging the wrong things to be honest (misleading celebs even).

And just to stray away from hip action a sec, I've noticed the same sort of thing creeping into the Tango. The judges (and everybody really) is emphasising the aggression of the dance to such an extent that the celebs are sometimes coming out looking positively homicidal! I felt Steve's was a bit like that. When there's too much anger, the dance loses it's elegance and almost starts to look like a parody of itself.

Sid wrote: I've noticed the same sort of thing creeping into the Tango. The judges (and everybody really) is emphasising the aggression of the dance to such an extent that the celebs are sometimes coming out looking positively homicidal! I felt Steve's was a bit like that. When there's too much anger, the dance loses it's elegance and almost starts to look like a parody of itself.

'Homicidal' - My thoughts exactly. I think of Tango as more of a 'cat & mouse' dark, dangerous but still playful dance but maybe I'm just wierd!

"When the rumba rythmn starts to play, dance with me, make me sway
Make me sway like only you know how, sway with me, sway me now."........sayeth the song wisely....

Unfortunately, the Strictly bosses seem more interested in the flavour of Robin Thick's 'Blurred Lines' and his walking model muppets.

Interesting discussion...

In fairness I have certainly heard Darcy and The Love God that is Leonard The Lion Goodman say on numerous occasions about putting the weight on the ball of the foot and the hip action will naturally follow (The Love God that is Leonard The Lion Goodman said something similar on the results show in the The Love God that is Leonard The Lion Goodman's Lense section). He has also in the past recommended higher heels for some of the women contestants to help with leading on the balls of their feet. Obviously that is not going to work for the men.... I do get what you are saying about the hip gyrating/rotating rather than the natural undulations made by the hip when the weight is placed correctly through the legs and the feet. It is usually the ones who don't/can't do this who seem to be encouraged to rotate and gyrate like Baloo - for some bizarre reason; surely it would be easier for the pro to get them to move their legs/feet properly?

On the subject of heels (so only a teensy weensy ickle bickle bit off topic....) - Alison - put some heels on! Although she has wonderful movement and fluidity her flat shoes make her feet look stompy, even though she is probably moving on the balls of her feet. I imagine there is some medical reason, like her feet will explode or her legs melt if she wears heels so I expect I will have to let her off, but it rankles. REALLY rankles....

B4p wrote:    
'Homicidal' - My thoughts exactly. I think of Tango as more of a 'cat & mouse' dark, dangerous but still playful dance but maybe I'm just wierd!

Absolutely. Tango is a dance portraying unfulfilled passion between would-be but can't -be lovers, not George and Mildred having a frying pan bust up in the kitchen. Strong  desire tempered with resistance and regret is the theme.

It's also based on those meat packers and gauchos having to learn to dance as the only way they could meet women (not that it always did them much good, because the ladies liked the danger of the dancing but had no intention of letting things get carried away (ladies of the night excepted of course). Because partners were never in sufficient n umbers to go round (a sort of reversal of Jane Austen's world) men often practised with each other, sometimes wearing spurs from their work, which caused the high-careful foot positioning of Argentine tango. Some sources claim leather chaps (over-trousers) were the reasons for the bent-knees. Personally, I'd say it was probably tall men bringing themselves level with the ladies. You can find out aall these things if you search out the real history of the tango pre 1930's Paris dance salons. Anger is never mentioned anywhere as part of the dance except possibly amongst the males where fights, even knife fights, were no unheard of. Just like in Paso Doble, anger is an invention rather than a reality.

Sid wrote:

Don't think I 've forgotten you announcing on DS about practicing the correct hip action in front of the mirror in just your black pants!!!    

I don't wear pants, sweatpants maybe.

Sorry, TMI!

Sid wrote:Totally get you Mr T. Sometimes the judges can be guilty of encouraging the wrong things to be honest (misleading celebs even).

And just to stray away from hip action a sec, I've noticed the same sort of thing creeping into the Tango. The judges (and everybody really) is emphasising the aggression of the dance to such an extent that the celebs are sometimes coming out looking positively homicidal! I felt Steve's was a bit like that. When there's too much anger, the dance loses it's elegance and almost starts to look like a parody of itself.

If Tango is already homocidal, I wonder what would happen when Steve (or other celebs) does Paso! Argh. Don't want to think about it!

cellar-door wrote:  
If Tango is already homocidal, I wonder what would happen when Steve (or other celebs) does Paso! Argh. Don't want to think about it!

So glad you mentioned Paso C.D. Antonio Ruiz Soler was almost certainly the finest Spanish dancer who ever lived. Not just flamenco, at which he was incredible, but ballet flamenco, folk dance and Sevillanas were all within his skills. He was to Spanish dance what Fred Astaire was to the ballroom. Here is a clip of him in the arena showing exactly what I mean. Please bear with it, even if you can't take flamenco singing, because you'll find it well worth it, believe me. Watch particularly for body shape, attitude and expression of the corrida (bullfight). Please watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgP-RBZf1c

And here's what Artem's up to across the pond:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IrwAJwCPA

TANGOLERO wrote:

So glad you mentioned Paso C.D. Antonio Ruiz Soler was almost certainly the finest Spanish dancer who ever lived. Not just flamenco, at which he was incredible, but ballet flamenco, folk dance and Sevillanas were all within his skills. He was to Spanish dance what Fred Astaire was to the ballroom. Here is a clip of him in the arena showing exactly what I mean. Please bear with it, even if you can't take flamenco singing, because you'll find it well worth it, believe me. Watch particularly for body shape, attitude and expression of the corrida (bullfight). Please watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgP-RBZf1c

Thanks for sharing that clip! The Spanish lines! Wow!

TANGOLERO wrote:And here's what Artem's up to across the pond:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IrwAJwCPA

Nice Burn The Floor stuff there! Their day jobs on live TV.

TANGOLERO wrote:And here's what Artem's up to across the pond:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IrwAJwCPA

Thanks for the links Tango. I'll copy this link over to the Pro slot. There's a lot of folks missing Artem this year.