Strictly 17 A little bit of Honesty

TANGOLERO wrote:Okay, here I go diving off the high board again.. Rant ahoy.

Davood. I'm sure women see him differently then men in several respects. Comments about his chin and mouth really have little or nothing to do with his dancing in the strict sense, (he can no more help how he looks than Cher or Joan Collins...oh, wait a minute..) except that C raig has made it a rule that hands, asses and faces that fit are now part of judging. Likewise, manboobs (since some bright spark seems to have decided a chest had to be in line with female portrusions to make it all fair. Not sure when man-bras will appear, pretty soon I'd imagine, about the same time as Y-Front knickers) which in reality is a bit of an insult if taken literally and again has nothing to do with dance ability. Having done a bit of what could be construed as a little insulting myself,( and taken plenty back)  it's all banter to me and yes, prejudice simmers just below the surface at times, but I accept we all differ at times so no big deal.  So let's judge the dance. Now to one that is sure to land  me deep in the you know what. Hips!

There is (for me) a line that occurs in male dance where swaying of hips becomes mincing. Of late, quite possibly influenced by the king of swivel himself, who slinks around like Kate Moss on ice skates, several male pro dancers are strutting about like Carmen Miranda on a Pina Colada ad in every dance where they actually let go of a partner. It is not a sin to be male any more than it is not to be, and last time I checked hips really only matter in Latin dance. This doesn't really include Tango and Paso Doble chaps, you know, they are actually ballroom! Hands and arms too have become less a pleasing balancing factor than an excercise in knitting fog to music. At the risk of being classed as dinasauric (?) Fred Astair never did either except in a completely natural way, nor Gene Kelly, Donald O'Connor, George Sanders etc, etc... I think we agree they could all dance. I don't think it very unfair to claim arms are being "waved about" to no real purpose, sort of "Doing a Silver tongued Italian Stallion" just for the sake of it. The great Clauditorium "Flamenco" arm wafting by Jannette and co was a real good example of it all. It just looked daft. The Pasobolloxthon was another. It was like a massive parody of Spain as seen by expat residents of "Colin's Corner" in Benidorm. Even the judges imitate drunken coppers on point duty at times with Darcy looking like she's wrestling a giant Anaconda. Get a grip.....and stop shouting "Ole" whilst dancing. It mean's "Bravo",and they are actually applauding themselves. It's an audience thing.

Just for the notebook, Flamenco isn't pair dancing, but always done solo, male or female, and never ever in hold.. Ballet Flamenco is a sort of combination of folk dance and ballet exhibition stuff, but not Flamenco at all. Sevillanas comes under Folk Dance as do other regional dances.

Okay, that's about it. Rant over and I slink away mumbling into the dusk....

Rant away Tango!

And you are right on every count. (nearly at least!!   )

But you are still not going to make me see Davood as anything other than a stiff Action Man Doll or enjoy his dancing.  Soz

I have nothing against Davood whatsoever and I think it has been good to see his J and how he has progressed and improved. I think he is now quite[i] good, and does [i]nice[i] and [i]pleasant dances that are easy on the eye[i] note my use of language - we all have our own likes and dislikes but for me he just doesn't stand out enough to warrant a place in the finals like many fine male dancers before him who have reached the quarters and the semis - if he can get there, good luck to him as long as it is not at the expense of Debbie or Joe.

S id - like you, once my favourites are in the final (Debbie and Joe) I'm fairly ambivalent about the other places because they have all been good in different ways - but again like you, I kind of would favour Gemma over Mollie (much as I really like Mollie) I think Gemma deserves it more on ability - would quite like it that they were both in the final (over Alex and Davood) but can't see that combination happening. Either way..................there's going to be some difficult dance offs in the next two weeks and I can't call it for the Final - let alone the winner!!!

Jingle have you changed your avatar?  Loving the sheep.... Guess for me I've almost got used to Davood's facial expressions!. I don't mind the odd celeb or s.leb singing as they dance either as long as they do not gurn. ...
I think I'd hate a dead eyes expression in a celebs face as they dance. I know a few struggle and I also SO detest the pretend sultry ooh-lets-get-it-on facial shannanigans in the Rhumba  cringe worthy and so makes me feel a bit oh please give it a rest and stop mucking about moan on.... Get rid of Rhumba pppllleeasseee

saxonsiren wrote:Jingle have you changed your avatar?  Loving the sheep

Oh, I think I've had the sheep for a while now - used to have a cat sitting at a window, and I may have briefly been JayMcGuiness and Aliona doing the jive (I still think theirs was the best jive ever on Strictly, and definitely not Ore or anyone from this season)


I see from ITT that some of the dancers will have backing dancers this week. That's OK for the giant Blackpool floor, but I fear it's going to look a bit messy in the small studio. Plus I don't think all the s.lebs are getting backing dancers so it's not very equal.

jingle wrote:I see from ITT that some of the dancers will have backing dancers this week. That's OK for the giant Blackpool floor, but I fear it's going to look a bit messy in the small studio. Plus I don't think all the s.lebs are getting backing dancers so it's not very equal.

I saw that too jingle, but presumed that it was a Katya's choice rather than the producer's. I think you're right that it's liable to look more messy, or is it intended to distract from the Joe's dancing? I wouldn't have thought so. Everyone left is pretty good especially Joe.

Changing the subject drastically and onto one of my pet subjects....

But I have been doing a lot of research into Salsa (a LOT!) and it's origins; comparisons with Mambo and the Hustle and all sorts of other diversions... Anyway, I am much more learned about it now, and my instinct that the Salsa we see on Strictly bears very little resemblance to actual Cuban Salsa has been bourne out. The Strictly Salsa is basically a mash-up of a load of dances (including Salsa on 1, Salsa on 2, Eddie Torres' New York-style Mambo [which is different from Palladium Mambo!] the Hustle, and who knows what else. This results in a chaotic mess. The Cuban Salsa is down in the knees, and though the upper body moves, the body level doesn't change much. Unlike the Stricly Salsa which goes up and down like a yo-yo. There are no lifts....

I came across this when trawling idly through my research (I need to get out on the hills!) - apart from being my perfect physique in a man (ie, he is hotter than July in a country where it is actually hot in July and not just a bit warmer than March), he demonstates beautifully, with his equally hot and sassy partner, what Cuban Salsa really looks like. Though their legs and hips are moving at the rate of knotts it somehow looks smooth and effortless. Rather than a car rash of flailing limbs, which is what we tend to see on Strictly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMm3lt5xkF4 Enjoy!

They also do a fantastic Mambo in their back yard! (And it really is very different from the Salsa)

diamondsandpearls wrote:

I came across this when trawling idly through my research
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMm3lt5xkF4   Enjoy!

Spot on D&P. This is exactly the sort of dance I've been on about several times; no Michael Flatley aeroplane arms or stiff stacatto in salsa. Fluidity, as you so rightly say, and natural movement are the key. That and no mincemeat. If they make an error , well, what's an error in this?, who would notice or care? They just glide along in an almost arrogant naturalness totally at one with the music almost like puppets on strings. Oh, by the way, that lady doesn't have intestines; she's just filled up with ball bearings instead.

And whilst I'm banging on about Cuban dance, this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB3qc_U9FHk should support the prevailing feeling (I know not all of you, but a lot us) that the Rumba is a squirmy, rubbish, cringe-fest of a dance.  The Strictly-style one is, but, as the opening sentence of this video says, it bears no resemblance to the real Cuban Rumba. In the Cuban Rumba you can very much see the African roots of the dance via the West African slaves. The slower, more sensual version, the Yambu, is presumably where the Ballroom Latin dance we know as the Rumba originated. But even then, it is just much more fun to watch - it isn't the cringe-fest that we have to watch from behind the sofa.

I totally realise that once you get into competiton and into the ballroom the edges will be very much smoothed, but the Rumba seems to have been filed down so very much that it bears precisely no resemblance to the dance it sprung from and has morphed into something quite awful.

And I totally want to go to Cuba!

diamondsandpearls wrote:
And I totally want to go to Cuba!

A few years ago, Cuba came to us. I went to the brilliant Bridgewater Hall in Manchester to see The Buena Vista Social Club show. Apart from hearing one of my all-time favourite songs, Guantanamera, sung by the fantastic Compay Segundo,( now sadly, like most of them passed on)  the whole experience was a magical music fest I'll never forget. Fantastic....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QO4aegj-jA

For super cool, cop for this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKQalDu4VU

Thanks for these links D&P and Mr T- really interesting to,watch and makes me realise that very few of us in Britain have this sort of rhythm in our DNA , it's so effortlessly natural for them!

Thanks for these links Tango. I too adore Buena Vista Social Club (I have only the CD sadly - never got a chance to see them). I like Guanteramera well enough, but my favourite is Chan Chan... :-) Much time spent dancing around my room to the whole CD (but not Cuban Salsa - it's my very own hybrid!)

I actually already came across that couple in your link when I was doing my (terribly important, academic ) research. They are dancing the Son, which is the daddy of Salsa, which in turn came from Rumba (the not-as-we-know-it kind, ie the good kind, rooted in Africa). The Son was very popular in the 1920s in Havana and by the 1940s had morphed into the Salsa and was a big hit in New York in the 50s. Once Castro came to power and links with the US were lost, the Puerto-Ricans took up the mantle of Salsa in New York and that accounts for the divergence from the (in my eyes) much nicer Cuban Salsa. The New York Salsa in turn fathered the Hustle and Disco. Meanwhile, in LA they put their own twist on things and that is where we get the lifts and the much more showy style of Salsa. Stricty Salsa is a hybrid of the New York and LA styles and is all the nastier for it......

Here endeth the history lesson....

Allsewnonbyhand wrote:makes me realise that very few of us in Britain have this sort of rhythm in our DNA , it's so effortlessly natural for them!

I'm afraid I am, very politely and respectfully (of course!) going to disagree with you Alls...

Firstly I very much believe it to be cultural. Pretty much every Italian (for example) man can dance and is not afraid to. British men and other Northern European men don;t dance - and therefore can't due to no practice. Women shake their booty quite happily, but no matter what their heritage (ie, even second generation Italians for example) British men are brought up with inhibitions about dancing - unless they are gay. If you see very small toddlers of any gender or ethnicity, they pretty much all have rythm. At some stage, self conciousness kicks and they stop dancing. A lot of little girls don't stop (though many do) and they practice routines with their friends or in front of the mirror. As adults, fter a couple of drinks, most women are able to feel the rhythm and get on down. Sadly, in our cutlrure, men have to be almost to the point of oblivion before they can dance, and becuae they are so rat-arsed they can;t find th eryhtm at all - which perpetuates their belief they can't dance. Kevin Clifton is not actually a rarity that he has hips and ryhtm, he is a rarity that, as a straight man, he ignored all the undoubted taunts he got, and went with his love of dance. I can't dance like Joanne clifton, say, but I have never had training. However, I have good rhythm and feeling for the music and, rare for a Caucasion, Northern European have no inhibitions. I never need a drink to dance like a loon and will dance in public at the drop of a hat if the music moves me. My friends won't do this. But they have rhythm. They feel the music. They just have northern european inhibitions which hold them back. I vrry much believe that you, Alls, can move your hips wiht the same abandon given the right circumstances (a locked door, a triple gin....!) that circumvent your very British inhibitions.

Secondly, the dance that you saw was not effortlessly natural. Those are pros - teachers of a renowned dance school in Havana. They will have practised as much as the pros (and s.lebs) do on Strictly. They have had YEARS of training. However, they will have started dancing at two and never ever stopped. That, I believe, is the main difference.

Haha yes you're probably right D&P - although I have to say Mr Alls can't isolate his hips at all- when he tries (much to our amusement ) he looks like Mr Bean and can only bend from the waist which is interesting because he is very musical with a great sense of rhythm when he plays, but he really can't dance at all!

Sorry Diamonds - I have to take polite and humorous issue with you over the question of British men and dancing.............. There are loads and loads of Northern European straight men who can dance - brits, germans, Belgians or whatever (and loads of latin lotharios who actually can't!! despite the hip swinging!!) Just go and watch any live band (particularly an indy or 90's band) or go to a music festival or club/music pub and you will find men dancing just fine........I've been around musicians all my adult life (including Mr Mauve) all brits and they've got the rhythm, but even if they aren't musicians they are out there - you've either got the rhythm or you haven't, it isn't anything to do with gender or where you come from.
K evin Clifton isn't the only straight northern European male in SCD - there is A nton and Neil Jones - we use to have T ristan (swoon) and Trent.

Also - yes, I absolutely love love Cuban Salsa and mambo and everything Cuban in fact, and would like to see this on SCD, but there is nothing 'nasty' about New York salsa or hustle (ergo Saturday Night Fever - in my opinion one of the finest dance soundtracks and film ever) or LA West Coast or even Miami............. I don't mind which style I see on SCD.........they are all wonderful and different.........as we all are

jingle wrote:I see from ITT that some of the dancers will have backing dancers this week.

Ah jingle - it seems that you were right about the extra dancers. Not just for Joe. What a shame.

Hmm, not a bad show. I missed Gemma’s dance sadly but I fear she and Mollie are in danger this week.

For me, Joe stole the show, I loved his dance.

And I’m sure I will be in the minority but, competent though it may have been, I simply did not enjoy watching Alexandra’s Charleston.

Perfect dance off for me would be Alex and Davood.

diamondsandpearls wrote:  

Firstly I very much believe it to be cultural.  Pretty much every Italian (for example) man can dance and is not afraid to.  British men and other Northern European men don;t dance - and therefore can't due to no practice.  Women shake their booty quite happily, but no matter what their heritage (ie, even second generation Italians for example) British men are brought up with inhibitions about dancing - unless they are gay.  

Oh dear D & P.
Hmm, Case history (mine):Learned basic ballroom at the youth club at fourteen. Danced as part of Bolton Palais Red Devils rock and roll team at seventeen. Carried on dancing in minor ways due to marrying and having three children. Worked 16 years in an engineering firm and foundry, twenty years on Liverpool docks and three years as a security guard and was a night club doorman for a while (in addition to other jobs and work including owning a couple of curio/antique shops) . Kept dancing. Been to ballroom classers with a couple of wives over the years and spent some three years doing classes and work shops in Spanish Dance and flamenco. Finally, last year joined the geriatric jivers took part in the T.V Program " Dance Hall Days" about dance in Bolton Palais, at the age of 77 and with several other men. As soon as my wife recovers from her knee replacement ops, I hope we'll be back out there. British men can and do dance, believe it.

mauveangel09 wrote:Sorry Diamonds - I have to take polite and humorous issue with you over the question of British men and dancing..............  There are loads and loads of Northern European straight men who can dance - brits, germans, Belgians or whatever  (and loads of latin lotharios who actually can't!! despite the hip swinging!!)   Just go and watch any live band (particularly an indy or 90's band) or go to a music festival or club/music pub and you will find men dancing just fine........I've been around musicians all my adult life (including Mr Mauve) all brits and they've got the rhythm, but even if they aren't musicians they are out there - you've either got the rhythm or you haven't, it isn't anything to do with gender or where you come from.
   K evin Clifton isn't the only straight northern European male in SCD - there is  A nton and Neil Jones - we use to have T ristan  (swoon) and Trent.

Also  - yes,  I absolutely love  love Cuban Salsa and mambo and everything Cuban in fact, and would like to see this on SCD, but there is nothing 'nasty' about New York salsa or hustle   (ergo Saturday Night Fever - in my opinion one of the finest dance soundtracks and film ever)  or LA West Coast or even Miami............. I don't mind which style I see on SCD.........they are all wonderful and different.........as we all are

No, we are in agreement Mauve! I was just saying that a lot of chaps in this country THINK they can't dance because they are too inhibited to - and need to get drunk to do it. Most blokes at a band have had a drink or two. I absolutely agree that it isn't about gender or where you come from - it was the point I waS (badly!) trying to make. I was responding to Alls comment that the Cuban dancers in the video i linked must have it in their DNA - I was saying that they didn't, that we are all born with the same natural rhythm (apart from a few individuals!) and what they have is a culture of no inhibition for dancing and also years and hours of training as pros.... Oh, and I just picked Kevin at random - I could have picked any one of the others.....

I think why I find the Strictly Salsa such a mess, and thus nasty to my eyes is that it is a mix-up of so many different styles. I think for it to be less chaotic it needs to nail its colours to one dance or another. I too enjoy a good Hustle, and enjoy the New York Salsa as much as the next person, but they are much cleaner than the Strictly throw-in-the-kitchen sink style Salsa which I really don't enjoy. But as you say, it is a good job we are all different and I don't mind being the only person to want a cleaner style of Salsa

fiftynotout wrote:Hmm, not a bad show.  I missed Gemma’s dance sadly but I fear she and Mollie are in danger this week.

For me, Joe stole the show, I loved his dance.

And I’m sure I will be in the minority but, competent though it may have been, I simply did not enjoy watching Alexandra’s Charleston.

Perfect dance off for me would be Alex and Davood.

I'm with you all the way on all three points. That Samba was bonkers and really shouldn't have worked, but I really found myself enjoying it.

Hated Alex's Charelston too - and her outfit did nothing to redeem it.

And that would be MY dream dance-off too!

QUARTER-FINAL

A mixed bag of a show. Some great dancing but even though it was high quality, I didn’t always enjoy it.

Gemma and Aljaz – Quickstep
She looked lovely, but did she make a few mistakes? I’m sad to say it because I do like her, but I think her race is run. I felt a little sad for her – her comments from the judges tend now to be pretty discouraging. It’s not great for an actress to be told by Shirley that she doesn’t show many acting skills! I know a lot of people like her and would like her at least be in the final, but for me, it’s time for her to go.7

Mollie and AJ - Rhumba
Nice number – thank goodness they were given a good song. I’ve decided, looking over old  Rhumbas like Kara Tointon’s and Rachel Steven’s that a slightly faster tempo makes for a better Rhumba. Personally I enjoyed it better for being more danced rather than some sort of lethargic pure love story, though if there has to be a story, there’s no need for it to be womanly love rather than young girl’s one. Can’t they be both? There wasn’t a huge amount of hip action but even so...
8

Joe and Katya - Samba
Didn’t do it for me. Just a lot of rushing around. The dancing – well I couldn’t tell what was going on till I played it back later without sound. For me the concept totally got in the way. I found the Samba later without the sound, as I said, but even so it seemed to disappear in the middle before coming back again for the end. A big disappointment. Probably because I expect better things from Joe and Katya. 7

Debbie and Giovanni – American Smooth
I really like this. Very beautiful indeed. Fluid, graceful and strong. I haven’t always agreed with a high score for these two, but today… 10 (Really expected C raig to give one as well. Not sure why not as he’s such a fan.)

Davood and Nadyia – Argentine Tango
Not for me – nearly good but you could see the joins and he seemed a bit stiff at times. Unsteady from time to time too, and I really thought he was going to drop Nadiya at one point. 7

Alexandra and Gorka – Charleston
Mmm – very, very good... but underwhelming. It’s the lack of chemistry again. I can’t get excited about them even when they’re doing a Charleston. The steps are great and very accomplished, but it’s almost like dancing to n umbers. The dress did nothing for her. Made her legs look like footballer’s legs. 9 for accomplishment. (0 for chemistry.)

Who’s going to go tomorrow? I have no idea. By rights it should be Gemma, but I’ve no idea how well her vote will hold up. Depending on the voting it could be Davood, Gemma or Mollie in the DO or perhaps even Joe!

fiftynotout wrote:Hmm, not a bad show.  I missed Gemma’s dance sadly but I fear she and Mollie are in danger this week.
For me, Joe stole the show, I loved his dance.
And I’m sure I will be in the minority but, competent though it may have been, I simply did not enjoy watching Alexandra’s Charleston.
Perfect dance off for me would be Alex and Davood.

No, you're not alone Fifty...I didn't rave about it either. I was much more swept away by Debbie's AS. Of the two ringers, I'd definitely prefer Debbie in the final, but sadly I think they'll both be there.
I never thought I'd say this, but I actually preferred Mollie's rumba to Gemma's QS- i didn't feel it had the continuous hip action, but it was wasn't as bad as I feared. Conversely, I wanted to love  Gemma's QS but just felt it didn't come up to,the mark. On that basis I gave all my votes to Mollie. Of the three in danger, on tonight's performance I'd want her to stay.
quick edit because our posts crossed Twirlie you put so eloquently exactly how I felt about everyone tonight. And yes I was expected a perfect 40 for Debbie too.

TANGOLERO wrote:

Oh dear D & P.
Hmm, Case history (mine):Learned basic ballroom at the youth club at fourteen. Danced as part of Bolton Palais Red Devils rock and roll team at seventeen. Carried on dancing in minor ways due to marrying and having three children. Worked 16 years in an engineering firm and foundry, twenty years on Liverpool docks and three years as a security guard and was a night club doorman for a while (in addition to other jobs and work including owning a couple of curio/antique shops) . Kept dancing. Been to ballroom classers with a couple of wives over the years and spent some three years doing classes and work shops in Spanish Dance and flamenco. Finally, last year joined the geriatric jivers took part in the T.V Program " Dance Hall Days" about dance in Bolton Palais, at the age of 77 and with several other men. As soon as my wife recovers from her knee replacement ops, I hope we'll be back out there. British men can and do dance, believe it.

I think my style of banging stuff out on my keyboard as fast as I can means I don;t explain or make my point very well... I was actually saying that British men CAN dance, but usually (usually, not all the time) need a bevy or two to get up the courage to do so. In social dancing anyway. You chose to learn dance in a formal way - that is a bit different in any case. My whole point was that EVERYONE - including British men - can dance. But in my experience, among my peers, whilst the women will always dance at a party, the men don;t join in until they've had a few and it's all nearly over. Also, whilst in other countries they still do partner dancing as social dancing, unless you are in a situation you describe, ie at a specific dance event or a class, the we just don;t do partner dancing - unless it's the slow dance at teh end of the school disco.

My whole response to Alls was meant to be that it's not special Cuban DNA that enables them to dance, but that everyone is born with rhythm - as I said - all toddlers fromn every culture, ethnicity and gender dance with rhythm. After that, what happens is anybody's guess....

Also, rhythm isn't the same as co-ordination... Wihtout being too immodest, I have fantastic rhythm and musicality. No problem in just feeling the music and free-styling a dance to my own interpretation. But if I was to do classes, where feet have to be placed in a specific way then I would be utterly, utterly lost! Doesn't stop me wanting to become famous and dance with Aljaz on Strictly though!

Tonight. This will sound like a rant. It isn't meant that way:

Contrived, judge-rigged and the music...oh, the music. If we are including flying, twirling with feet off the floor whilst hanging off your partner's neck and examples of "look what I can lift", then I suppose it was okay. Gemma danced, made a very decent mistake free job and the fabu-u-lus darling one gave her 6? Shirley was looking for 20% more. What exactly does that mean in a very decent quickstep? 6,7,8,8. 29.

Molly again did a decent job of the dreded rumba to rubbish music choices, got two 9's and the fabu-u-lus darling one gave her a 6 and Darcy a 7. 6,7,9,9, 31.

Joe, Samba. the fabu-u-lus darling one loved it, made no comments yet gave it a 9...and so did I apart from the music again.They made it work something decent against the odds. Only Silver tongued Italian Stallion had the cojones to give it a 10.
9,9,9,10. 37

Debbie..and Gio. Must be me. American Smooth? Lift, lift, lift, twirl around,twirl around? The small segment in hold was good and
I wanted more of that. Inevitable drooling and 9,10.10.10. 39.

Davood.
Great job, poor marks. 7,8,7,7. 29. lining him up for the dance off and possible exit (judges views) I really enjoyed the dance from an honest contestant.

Her and Him. Best not comment. I bet the wife she'd get three 10's to match Debbie.

diamondsandpearls wrote:
Also, rhythm isn't the same as co-ordination...  Wihtout being too immodest, I have fantastic rhythm and musicality.  No problem in just feeling the music and free-styling a dance to my own interpretation. But if I was to do classes, where feet have to be placed in a specific way then I would be utterly, utterly lost! Doesn't stop me wanting to become famous and dance with Aljaz on Strictly though!

TANGOLERO wrote:The Buena Vista Social Club show. Apart from hearing one of my all-time favourite songs, Guantanamera, sung by the fantastic Compay Segundo,( now sadly, like most of them passed on)  the whole experience was a magical music fest I'll never forget. Fantastic...

I saw the same show Tango. Pretty special. A few weeks before, I saw a Tango show which was also spectacular.

B4p wrote:
I saw the same show Tango. Pretty special. A few weeks before, I saw a Tango show which was also spectacular.

I missed the Tango show B4p, but I did see the Halle there( The Bridgewater being their home turf) do a night of Spanish music including Bolero. That was amazing...