Strictly 17 A little bit of Honesty

diamondsandpearls wrote: I think Janette made an Erin-doll-showdance mistake with her theming and choreography for the VW and hopefully is regretting it. Janette's choreography lost the whole essence of the dance and Aston just couldn't shine and it was an awkward, unconfortable dance to watch - not beautiful and swirling as the VW should be.  I feel very sad for Aston and feel he was let down by Janette's theme and choreography.

But did you see Aljaz's little face when Janette and Aston were knocked out - he was gutted  

That's the first thing I thought diamonds 'it's an Erin's doll moment'. How could the judges mark it? It wasn't a classic VW. It wasn't a theme week. The music could've been possible, without all the MJ stuff but she went too much for the MJ feel and forgot the emphasis should have been VW. I think she tried to gamble on a half/half routine and it backfired. He didn't really have a chance to improve the routine for the dance off like Mollie did. If there's one dance the judges don't like messing with its the VW. The judges had already panned it and the public didn't vote, maybe thinking Aston was safe. You'd have thought by now it was obvious to everyone that no-one is safe.

I did feel sorry for Alijaz, he looked heartbroken. I also felt for Mollie. It's bad enough being in the dance off again, but now she'll have all the toxic backlash for knocking out a frontrunner. A brave move by Shirley and another stick for the anti-Shirley brigade to wield. One of my Strictly balloons seems to have popped with all the trauma.

I won't be shedding any tears. Twitterati is going beserk with outrage at the result but it is likew the chicken and the egg. The real outrage should be that the likes of Aston are allowed to enter in the first place. He wasn't a learner and I hate watching shows and hearing people trying to say how he has learned. He was well-versed in dance pre-Strictly as can be seen by his dance in week one. Anyway....on with the show.

Hello all, I just had time to see the results before dashing out to pub quiz, and I haven't had chance yet to read your comments , but myself and daughter both let out a collective yeeess when Shirley saved Mollie because for once they judged it on the night, not for potential or who is a "better dancer" and on the night Mollie deserved to stay. I said to daughter as she was dancing in the DO it would be a real shame if she goes out on this because she's done nothing wrong and on the night it was marked higher. So for me justice was done on the night. I was worried when It came to a casting vote, but well done Shirley, I believe it was the correct decision.

Well, we all predicted a "shock" not sure we thought it would be such a huge one but that's strictly!
And now off to catch up with all your thoughts. I know one person who will be happy on here-  CC!

HAHA look,an emoji to sum up what went wrong for Aston ...

Sid wrote:So we've established that a twirly Viennese Waltz doesn't fuse with funk & soul - because that wasn't already blindingly obvious.

Janette's an absolute sweetheart but she's also a massive liability. Even if producers dictate the music, this wasn't a one-off thing. There's been a long-standing question mark over her Ballroom which is almost always done with a 'modern twist' and poorly taught technique. You have to stay at least somewhat faithful to what the dances are. None of Aston, Jake or Peter ever broke out of their own way of dancing and the common link is their pro partner.

I was actually more surprised by (and felt bad for) Mollie finding herself in her second consecutive dance off because the previous week's bottom two are almost guaranteed a bounce back vote boost but she didn't get it. Can't have felt nice.

I expect Shirley's getting a lot of stick out there but she chose right.

Spot on! and this is definitely not a 'one off Erin doll mistake' on Janette's part - it is a recurring theme. When I did my earlier post about the same thing - I had no knowledge whatsoever of the DO result or who was in the DO.

Like CC says - I'm shedding no tears - perhaps all the bleating twitterati should have made themselves busier by voting for A ston and keeping him out of the bottom two if they care so much?

I was more shocked that Mollie didn't get the bounce vote...................

We've always known about the middle of the board danger zone, but I think tonight also illustrates that those high up the leader board early on might never get in the DO even if they don't have the public support. Which I think must have been the case with Aston, because if he had a legion of fans they surely would have voted last night?
So the judges can manipulate this to a degree by scoring their favourites high above the rest giving them a degree of safety. The trouble comes, as we know, when there are a lot of tied scores.

allsewnonbyhand wrote:We've always known about the middle of the board danger zone, but I think tonight also illustrates that those high up the leader board early on might never get in the DO even if they don't have the public support.

I can't remember which female it was, but a few years back, one was regularly put near the top of the leaderboard by the judges, but ended up in the dance off on a regular basis due to no public support. Anybody remember who it was? Emma Bunton with Darren?

B4p wrote:
I can't remember which female it was, but a few years back, one was regularly put near the top of the leaderboard by the judges, but ended up in the dance off on a regular basis due to no public support. Anybody remember who it was? Emma Bunton with Darren?

Gabby Logan?

B4p wrote:
I can't remember which female it was, but a few years back, one was regularly put near the top of the leaderboard by the judges, but ended up in the dance off on a regular basis due to no public support. Anybody remember who it was? Emma Bunton with Darren?

Lisa Snowden and then Natalie Gumede to a lesser extent

Yes B4 I do have some recollection of that, no idea who
Just been trying to work out the maths and I may have got this all wrong( miss Kate at times like these!) but I think Aston must have been either bottom or next to bottom in the public vote to be in the DO with Mollie. In fact looking at it Mollie may have had to be bottom as she was on 5 points, but my brain is getting a bit frazzled...any budding mathematicians out there?

Have to say - I'd have been livid if Mollie had gone out based on those two dances. She and AJ totally cleaned up their dance and it was artistically beautiful as well as technically (I think) correct. Aston was nowhere in those terms. Their VW, which should be a dance of style and elegance surely, was bouncy and almost pop-py - not in the slightest artistically beautiful. His technique didn't seem to have improved any. It was still all rise and fall. I can't help but feel that Darcy and B runo voted for Aston thinking of his past dances and future potential to go to the final, which Mollie doesn't have. I find it hard to believe they really thought his dance was better than Mollie's. You can always (well nearly always) rely on C raig to be dispassionate with his decisions.  For once I'm glad Shirley was able to give her decision as well. I like to think that L en would have voted likewise.

Twirlie wrote:Have to say - I'd have been livid if Mollie had gone out based on those two dances. She and AJ totally cleaned up their dance and it was artistically beautiful as well as technically (I think) correct.

Exactly Twirlie. Couldn't agree more. Molly could do no more than she did. I was literally holding my breath waiting to see if Shirley would make the right decision based on what was in front of her at the time ,not any past performances or future potential. Actually restored my faith in the process because I don't think that's always been the case.

allsewnonbyhand wrote:
Just been trying to work out the maths  and I may have got this all wrong( miss Kate at times like these!) but I think Aston must have been either bottom or next to bottom in the public vote to be in the DO with Mollie. In fact looking at it Mollie may have had to be bottom as she was on 5 points, but my brain is getting a bit frazzled...any budding mathematicians out there?

Where's Kate when we need her?!!
I'll have a go at it. So, there were 10 contestants, with one tie at score 5. In the unlikely event that those at the top of the scoreboard got the very lowest public votes and Ruth got either the highest or second highest public vote, then all contestants would need a combined score of 11 or higher to avoid the DO. In that scenario, Mollie could've technically been sixth (behind Ruth, Gemma, Jonnie, Aston and Susan) and Aston fourth (behind Ruth, Gemma and Jonnie) in the public vote and yet still in DO.  
Of course, that's only one of many configurations,  but it does show that Mollie and Aston weren't necessarily that unpopular with the public.

jingle wrote:

Where's Kate when we need her?!!
I'll have a go at it. So, there were 10 contestants, with one tie at score 5. In the unlikely event that those at the top of the scoreboard got the very lowest public votes and Ruth got either the highest or second highest public vote, then all contestants would need a combined score of 11 or higher to avoid the DO. In that scenario, Mollie could've technically been sixth (behind Ruth, Gemma, Jonnie, Aston and Susan) and Aston fourth (behind Ruth, Gemma and Jonnie) in the public vote and yet still in DO.  
Of course, that's only one of many configurations,  but it does show that Mollie and Aston weren't necessarily that unpopular with the public.

Ah thanks Jingle I knew I wasn't quite right but couldn't get my head round it...I'm sure a spreadsheet would help here, if I get a few minutes to spare at work I might pretend to look busy and see if I can make one!

Edit: I've had a little play and working on that theory Jingle, Ruth must have been in the top 2 with the public to get more 11 + in total Davood at the other end could have been 7th place with the public and still got 11+
So yes, definitely not as clear cut as it appeared
Interestingly, having done quite a few configurations but not all obvs as there are probably hundreds, there are lots of tied scores until the top and bottom ends of the leaderboard get polarised in the public votes, and even then there ties for the top four.
Ooh I love a good spreadsheet, but I must get on with some real work!!

I personally think the producers have had a word in C raigs ear this year .He is overall less aserbic and less of the name calling and sarky look down his nose at contestants .Less of the " you looked like a blob of jelly " and worse . I think the whole show has shifted to a family show drawing in kids etc and a more feel good factor being portrayed.Then surely the stupid VT's etc are not aimed at adults and the increasing themed dances are also to draw in the family
C raig probably got the memo to try to tone it down and as with everything he does went completely overboard and hence the fawning and bowing .Personally I found the bow to Debbie creepy and very cringy . A warm handshake would have been more than enough but his prostration was mortifyingly awful

Nothing at all wrong with family shows, I'm twice a great grandfather to prove that. That said, after a lifetime of family and pleasing the little, er mites, I wouldn't mind a little more adult dance show to look forth to occasionally. Guess I'm getting reallllllyyyy old.

I'm totally in cinq with those who applauded the judges decision to judge the dance on sheer merit and forget all else. Why would Darcy make a wrong vote? I think she was breaking the rule and voting on potential, and that isn't supposed to be allowed. I bet my wife Shirley would vote ballroom and technique and was delighted when she did. I've never panned Aston despite his amazing ability (experienced or otherwise), but last night he and Janette failed to produce. End of. That's what Strictly should really be all about, not a popularity contest.

Incidentally, Alijaz, a man I intensely admire as a dancer, was noted as very upset at Aston's demise. Might just be also, that Janette being his wife had a bit to do with his feelings....I say, "might" note.

TANGOLERO wrote:I'm totally in cinq with those who applauded the judges decision to judge the dance on sheer merit and forget all else. Why would Darcy make a wrong vote? I think she was breaking the rule and voting on potential, and that isn't supposed to be allowed. I bet my wife Shirley would vote ballroom and technique and was delighted when she did. I've never panned Aston despite his amazing ability (experienced or otherwise), but last night he and Janette failed to produce. End of. That's what Strictly should really be all about, not a popularity contest.  

Incidentally, Alijaz, a man I intensely admire as a dancer, was noted as very upset at Aston's demise. Might just be also, that Janette being his wife had a bit to do with his feelings....I say, "might" note.

Agreed.

It is amusing listening to those bleat on about the injustice of it all on Strictly's Twitter page. However, it was the viewers votes that dropped him into the dance-off (or lack of). They are bemoaning the system - a system that in the past they defended for keeping the likes of John Sargeant in until the halfway mark. A system that allowed the likes of Ann Widdecombe stay long beyond her dance talent should have allowed. Those moaners should remember that.

Is it just me? Watch when the judges are giving their verdict and Darcy starts talking looking at the camera then looks down when saying she'd like to save Aston. That is telling to me.

Just a talk-point, but Something I've meant to bring up before. Do a lot of Pro dancers get a bit carried away with the staccato bits in most dances currently?( I actually thought the accompanying dance to Stereophonics last night was a real example of this) To be honest, I've always thought that the clockwork robot bits even in paso and tango tend to overdo all that is natural. In any other discipline it looks just plain wrong to me. I've never known any of the greats (I'm thinking Fred, as ever) do quite so much neck-breaking head twitches. Ballroom dancing isn't and never has been a la Michael Flatley or even John Travolta type straight arm pointing, you don't jab your arm out to switch a light on, or even to point if it comes to that, and I've never seen Fred Astaire make an unatural move in any of his films (and I've seen them all) . I've also been to Spanish Dance and Flamenco classes where arrogance and not anger is the main emotion. I've said it till I'm sick, but you don't get angry either at a tango partner or a bull (especially not a bull). Tango isn't a march done whilst staring holes in the walls, but a man dancing with a woman in a dominant fashion (I don't think It's a crime to look at her occasionally). My point is, are the ballroom teaching rules responsible for overdoing the starch ( and I'm looking at you The Love God that is Leonard The Lion Goodman with the "sweaty Gaucho mood) to the extent of forgetting what the dance is actually all about, ie the body moving to rhythmical dance music and not marching to the Band of the Coldstream Guards...?

Just thought I'd mention it...

allsewnonbyhand wrote:

Exactly Twirlie. Couldn't agree more. Molly could do no more than she did. I was literally holding my breath waiting to see if Shirley would make the right decision based on what was in front of her at the time ,not any past performances or future potential. Actually restored my faith in the process because I don't think that's always been the case.

Very well put Allse.
I have a little more faith in Shirley now.

As CC says - the viewers put A ston in the bottom two in the first place - the moaners should remember that. I see that the J ordans have been rattling their cage about it today as well........................

B4p wrote:
I can't remember which female it was, but a few years back, one was regularly put near the top of the leaderboard by the judges, but ended up in the dance off on a regular basis due to no public support. Anybody remember who it was? Emma Bunton with Darren?

I just remembered another more recent one B4P - Tristan Mcmanus dancing with Jamelia. I think they were in the DO about five times and kept being saved by the judges before being eliminated although not sure how high up the leaderboard she was. I think Lisa Snowden and Nathalie Gumede were always put near the top if not at the top for some dances but Lisa in particular made DO appearances, more so than Nathalie.

Jamelia oh I recall the many many unsuccessful dance off's she survived. I recall she was very "Gobby"

TANGOLERO wrote:I'm twice a great grandfather to prove that.

May I just say TANGOLERO, that going by your picture, you're wearing terribly well for a great grandfather! You look like a movie star!  

Twirlie wrote:
May I just say TANGOLERO, that going by your picture, you're wearing terribly well for a great grandfather! You look like a movie star!  

Like Michael Ball admitted - he's had a bit of work done

TANGOLERO wrote:

Incidentally, Alijaz, a man I intensely admire as a dancer, was noted as very upset at Aston's demise. Might just be also, that Janette being his wife had a bit to do with his feelings....I say, "might" note.

I certainly meant just that when I mentioned it (though I can't speak for anyone else who noted it....). He is intensely loyal to Janette- another reasonto respect him

TANGOLERO wrote:Just a talk-point, but Something I've meant to bring up before. Do a lot of Pro dancers get a bit carried away with the staccato bits in most dances currently?( I actually thought the accompanying dance to Stereophonics last night was a real example of this)  To be honest, I've always thought that the clockwork robot bits even in paso and tango tend to overdo all that is natural. In any other discipline it looks just plain wrong to me. I've never known any of the greats (I'm thinking Fred, as ever) do quite so much neck-breaking head twitches. Ballroom dancing isn't and never has been a la Michael Flatley or even John Travolta type straight arm pointing, you don't jab your arm out to switch a light on, or even to point if it comes to that, and I've never seen Fred Astaire make an unatural move in any of his films (and I've seen them all) . I've also been to Spanish Dance and Flamenco classes where arrogance and not anger is the main emotion. I've said it till I'm sick, but you don't get angry either at a tango partner or a bull (especially not a bull). Tango isn't a march done whilst staring holes in the walls, but a man dancing with a woman in a dominant fashion (I don't think It's a crime to look at her occasionally). My point is, are the ballroom teaching rules responsible for overdoing the starch ( and I'm looking at you The Love God that is Leonard The Lion Goodman with the "sweaty Gaucho mood) to the extent of forgetting what the dance is actually all about, ie the body moving to rhythmical dance music and not marching to the Band of the Coldstream Guards...?

Just thought I'd mention it...

Very intersting Tango... You sum up exactly why I never took to Come Dancing when I was a child and loved how the film Strictly Ballroom sent it all up. Come Dancing was all so stiff and starchy in comparison to Fred or Gene or Vera or Cyd or Ann (Miller - another great) etc. If you look at Our Shirl at her peak she was the personification of what Strictly Ballroom was pastiche-ing.  

However......  I do accept that there has to be an accepted consistency and standard in steps and technique so that dancers can be judged against each other.  I guess it is a question of balance (let's not mention core stability.... ) between technicality and really feeling and interpreting the music. Maybe there should be two scores, as there is in many sports which combine an element of dance (ice dancing, floor gymnastics for example) where scores are given for technical merit and another set for artistic interpretation (or entertainment value in the case of Strictly)

But starch and  (too much) staccato have no place in dance!