A Little Bit of Honesty.

Oh, and can I also say...

Simon in purple shirt and black velvet... Smoking! Costume of the night! (ok, ok, Frankie's Showdance dress was to die for, but you all know what I mean...)

As an aside, what happened to Caroline in the costume stakes?  She has had two weeks of nice outfits.  Then tonight we get back all the shapeless bin bags...  I at least want my winner to wear nice dresses - not sacks made of shiny fringing and tassles....

And I agree B4P - would have been good for Caroline to do a ballroom.  Wasn't convinced by her cha cha cha, but to be honest, my attention wavered.  I think if you can't grip your audience then you have failed... both of Mark's dances were left fairly unattended by me, so I was glad he was out first.

mauveangel09 wrote: with a clever inclusion of Steve without O la -  quite liked him dancing with Sunetra!

So pleased you mentioned that mauve because it made me smile too. I remember joking with some Strictly fans on DS about how much we'd like to see Steve and Sunetra dance together after the fab interview they did with Zoe from Blackpool. They just had a lovely rapport and lo and behold they danced with each other in the final!

B4p wrote:I didn't really like Caroline's show dance. I'm not that keen on contemporary, slow, barefoot dancing. The opening segment reminded me of Fl avia's contempory dance a few seasons ago where she was being pulled about by a washload of nylon sheets held by the male Pro dancers.

I think it might have been more balanced if they'd done one latin, one ballroom and their show dances.

I must admit, I find all that barefoot 'contemporary' dancing a bit poncey! It's not quite one thing or another; it's all floaty outfits and drama-school over-emoting. Not my cup of tea. That said, I think it played to Caroline's strengths because she's a very 'intense' performer as diamonds says...and most viewers probably like that.

Totally agree about couples performing one Latin and one Ballroom. That's how it used to be?

Also wanted to say a big thank you B4 for all your Twitter updates and links...must have taken a lot of time and effort and we appreciate it a lot dude.

diamondsandpearls wrote:Frankie....Because of her consistency I would have liked her to win rather than Caroline - she is like the good girl at school who does well but never gets the prizes because they don't make a song and dance about everything.

But overall, I think the real winners were clearly Simon and Kristina.  Although he burbled about finding himself blah blah blah, I actually think that Strictly (and Kristina - let's not forget Kristina) really did pick him up and transport him to a happy place.

You summed up everything beautifully diamonds. After the audience reaction to his Argentine Tango (and it was the biggest response of the night), a small part of me thought he might do it. But it was too little too late...the phone lines had been open the moment the second half started and Caroline was probably way ahead at that point, unbeatable even before they danced for the last time.

ps - venue, caterer, photographer, dj booked

Sid wrote: I must admit, I find all that barefoot 'contemporary' dancing a bit poncey! It's not quite one thing or another; it's all floaty outfits and drama-school over-emoting. Not my cup of tea. That said, I think it played to Caroline's strengths because she's a very 'intense' performer as diamonds says...and most viewers probably like that.

Poncey - sums it up nicely. I think it was her intensity that I found wearing. Couldn't she smile doing ballroom? Did all her performances have to be 'War & Peaced Off'. The perpetual frown was like watching a rain cloud hovering over her head -  tortuous

Sid wrote: After the audience reaction to his Argentine Tango (and it was the biggest response of the night), a small part of me thought he might do it. But it was too little too late...the phone lines had been open the moment the second half started and Caroline was probably way ahead at that point, unbeatable even before they danced for the last time.

I thought that as well. Whoever goes last has the least voting time.

Did anyone else think Claude's black dress look like it had come from Star Trek's prop department? Just me then?

I still stand by what I said after part one last night - any of the three were worthy winners so no complaints from me. Sadly, there can only ever be one winner and this time the judges were in agreement with the British public.

In all a great series and great comaraderie between the contestants. It is such a shame we have eight months to wait until the next series.

Morning all! As the news filtered through Caroline had won! Family annual Christmas lunch and evening drinks kept me away Ive still NOT seen the show.Read all your comments yes I agree its been a lovely warm group of celebs this year. Ill watch it this afternoon and then add comments re dances.Im a little sad Simon didn't get it as I felt he and Kristina turned a corner AND converted me the viewer to liking them both


Merry Christmas Everyone

B4p wrote:
Poncey - sums it up nicely. I think it was her intensity that I found wearing. Couldn't she smile doing ballroom? Did all her performances have to be 'War & Peaced Off'. The perpetual frown was like watching a rain cloud hovering over her head -  tortuous


I thought that as well. Whoever goes last has the least voting time.

Morning all - Merry Christmas - and Happy Solstice - the shortest day of the year today

it's now sinking in that it is all over for another year!! Although we have got the Xmas special to come.

I thought exactly the same about the voting - I'm afraid I threw a lot of votes for Simon before he danced the last dance for that reason. I was pretty sure it would be a sizzler - even though not entirely happy about the balance of dances that we saw last night (the production team obviously seem to think that GBP likes the novelty style dances - we are regularly seeing charlestons in the final now) I was so glad that we saw an Argentine Tango in the final and one of the best quality. Although I enjoyed it I was a little critical of this one the first time round thinking it was a bit overmarked and I thought until last night that Caroline's AT was the best of the season - however, Simon did even better the second time round and really smashed it - I also think that an AT done by a male celeb is very different to that done by a female and dare I say it - harder to pull off. I think in the last few years the quality of the ATs have gone down but this one will be right up there with the classic SCD Argentine Tangos of yesteryear- it just shows that at the end of the day excellent dancing can still be found beneath some of the silliness and dumbed down stuff that we now see on SCD.

It's a pity we never know the vote share because we will never know how close the voting might have been...............? Although I would have loved him to win, I think that given his appearances in dance offs even up until quite recently, Simon obviously wasn't getting such a big share of the votes each week so it was an absolute triumph to me that he won through to that second round on merit and winning over the voters - whereas having never been in a DO and up there every week it was really Frankie's to lose I felt.

I don't normally like the floaty contemporary stuff either - one reason why I slated Karen and Mark last week, but anything is allowed in the Showdance and I have never seen that type of stuff done very well when it has been put in Showdances in the past. It was a big risk which obviously appealed to GBP.

I'm going to be popping in and out of the forum today -because I want to see everyone's views and very shortly I guess we will all be going our separate ways again for a little while...................... I probably should be out doing the rest of my Xmas shopping or some such malarkey but to be honest since dancing at our Xmas Do on Friday night my back has been seriously playing up, so probably just shuffle about today.....

Me, I am really tired of the whole "She/he has had dance training" They went to stage school where dancing is part of the overall programme. Most of their time is given to ACTING not dance. Dance, singing, accents are all minor classes. At university I did vertebrate biology. I was considered to be good at science. I left high school with two awards for biology. One said that I was the best science student of my year. I haven't looked at biology since. If I was on a show that was based on science, would you all say I had previous training? I have to say, if you did, I would think you were being very silly.

Pasha is quoted as saying that teaching latin dance to ballet dancers is very difficult. They pull up so much that hip action is very difficult. Darcy, as good as she has been in ballroom and jive....is not great with hip action.

Physical training OF ANY KIND, is going to make learning another physical skill easier. One has more control and understanding of one's muscles. Over the years, I have done dance classes.....not a dancer.....not good...BUT when someone says my left shoulder is 1/2 inch too high, I know how to correct it. Note how well sports people have done: cricket, rugby, gymnastics. Which reminds me, Mr. I-have-never-had-dance-training Mark; Where did he learn all those flip flops gymnastics anyone? shades of Matt Baker? Just looked him up: semi-professional football player.....PHYSICAL TRAINING.....stamina etc.

My wish for next year is that this particular discussion can die the death.

I like contemporary dance. I also like hip-hop. As I have said that barefoot dancing is a chance to really use the feet.

hatlady28 wrote:Me, I am really tired of the whole "She/he has had dance training"  They went to stage school where dancing is part of the overall programme.  Most of their time is given to ACTING not dance.  Dance, singing, accents are all minor classes.  At university I did vertebrate biology.  I was considered to be good at science.  I left high school with two awards for biology. One said that I was the best science student of my year.  I haven't looked at biology since.  If I was on a show that was based on science, would you all say I had previous training?  I have to say, if you did, I would think you were being very silly.

Pasha is quoted as saying that teaching latin dance to ballet dancers is very difficult.  They pull up so much that hip action is very difficult.  Darcy, as good as she has been in ballroom and jive....is not great with hip action.

Physical training OF ANY KIND, is going to make learning another physical skill easier. One has more control and understanding of one's muscles. Over the years, I have done dance classes.....not a dancer.....not good...BUT when someone says my left shoulder is 1/2 inch too high, I know how to correct it.  Note how well sports people have done: cricket, rugby, gymnastics.  Which reminds me, Mr. I-have-never-had-dance-training Mark;  Where did he learn all those flip flops gymnastics anyone? shades of Matt Baker? Just looked him up: semi-professional football player.....PHYSICAL
TRAINING.....stamina  etc.

My wish for next year is that this particular discussion can die the death.

I like contemporary dance. I also like hip-hop.  As I have said that barefoot dancing is a chance to really use the feet.

I take your point about the stage school darlings.  I think all that annoyed me was that some of them were perceived as fully trained dancers (Pixie) whereas some of them were perceived as never having danced, even in a nightclub, before (Mark).  Caroline very much flew under that particular radar, even though she has had specific dance training. So all that upsets me is that some get slated for any dance background they may have and other are airbrushed over...

Oh and Mark - LOTS of secrets in his cupboard I think.  His constant acting and performing suggests to me that TOWIE isn't really a reality show, it's scripted and performed by actors...

And I agree the sports people do well, for all the reasons you say, and that in effect that gives them just as unfair advantage as Pixie who did ballet lessons when she was 6 and did a bit of jigging about on stage at her gigs...  It's ALL about perception....  Is someone who has natural rhythm and great hip action (that'd be me!) at an unfair advantage over someone like Judy and Scott, even though they aren't a sportsperson and used to training and discipline and have never been anywhere near a stage school......? For some reason so many think stage school is like the Fame! TV show/film and they all turn out to be perfect dancers. Whereas sports people have two left feet.... And blokes from TOWIE are just real geezers who do blue collar work and have never even danced at their cousin's wedding before....

I like contemporary dance, but nor as much as ballroom and I like hip hop, better than contemporary. But the show is about ballroom dancing (it was named after a film sending up competition ballroom dancing and a BBC show which was a ballroom competition), not a show about all dance styles and genres, and I expect to see a show dance that reflects that. I felt that in the context of a show like Strictly the contemporary dance was pretentious (poncey as Sid called it...).  I would say they same if Pixie had been in the final and pulled off a ballet routine or Mark had gone all street dance.  Otherwise you could have a rugby player doing the Haka for example and call that a showdance in a ballroom competitition..... If they want to change the show to Celebrity Dance Night, then I wouldn't say a word about what dances are included... I've always hated those gymnastic style showdances that the pros are wont to do for the same reason.  Thank goodness there was no attempt at that style this year...

So that's the reason Caroline's dance got on my wick.  Also, it very well illustrated her intense, needy personality which makes me uncomfortable (I mean seeing it so publicly displayed).  I know she is going through a relationship break up and that is very, very tough, but if anything she has been more confident SINCE the breakup... Anyway, she's a good dancer but not as good as either Pixie or Frankie in my mind.  And nothing she did came anywhere near Simon and Kristina's AT as far as I'm concerned!

hatlady28 wrote:Me, I am really tired of the whole "She/he has had dance training"  They went to stage school where dancing is part of the overall programme.  Most of their time is given to ACTING not dance.  Dance, singing, accents are all minor classes.  At university I did vertebrate biology.  I was considered to be good at science.  I left high school with two awards for biology. One said that I was the best science student of my year.  I haven't looked at biology since.  If I was on a show that was based on science, would you all say I had previous training?  I have to say, if you did, I would think you were being very silly.

Pasha is quoted as saying that teaching latin dance to ballet dancers is very difficult.  They pull up so much that hip action is very difficult.  Darcy, as good as she has been in ballroom and jive....is not great with hip action.

Physical training OF ANY KIND, is going to make learning another physical skill easier. One has more control and understanding of one's muscles. Over the years, I have done dance classes.....not a dancer.....not good...BUT when someone says my left shoulder is 1/2 inch too high, I know how to correct it.  Note how well sports people have done: cricket, rugby, gymnastics.  Which reminds me, Mr. I-have-never-had-dance-training Mark;  Where did he learn all those flip flops gymnastics anyone? shades of Matt Baker? Just looked him up: semi-professional football player.....PHYSICAL TRAINING.....stamina  etc.

My wish for next year is that this particular discussion can die the death.

I like contemporary dance. I also like hip-hop.  As I have said that barefoot dancing is a chance to really use the feet.

Well I suppose it all depends on what you want/expect from the series?

Personally, I always find greatest connection with celebs who start the contest at the absolute bottom rung of the dance ladder and learn from absolute starter grade. It is the joy of seeing them learn and blossom into talented dancers that impresses me more than watching someone come into the contest with pre-Strictly dance experience who start with a clear advantage over the have nots. Is it really so enjoyable watching someone who can and has danced and taken lesson already tweaking their skills to a slightly higher level? For me most definitely not. The greener they are at dancing the better thank you very much and nothing will change that opinion.

CC, I do understand that you want to see development......2 of the finalists went to stage school and took dance classes. Simon will have worked with choreographers as part of Blue, and will be ready for the long rehearsal hours. (like Alesha) People like to see dancing, not struggling. We could have had the following list of celebs: Tim Wonnacott, Judy Murray (who was starting to get better), Sunetra (who probably would have won) Alison Hammond (in the final?) Scott, Greg Wallace, Jennifer Gibney. No Jake, he went to stage school too. Thom did sport but was dead in the personality stakes.

You cut out all those with a good physical background.....as I say, sports people along with dancers would have to be excluded,(remember how light on his feet Austin Healey was? His jive had kicks, flicks and bounce,) you'll get gradual interesting progress, but probably no dancing (as separate from performance) until the 3rd or 4th week. All of Pixie's background did not save her. For me that would be all on one level. I like it when someone bursts out of the pack. This year? I didn't enjoy it, all on one note. No real surprises in the eliminations.

Stage school contestants have been with us since the first season, Natasha is the ONLY winner who was not a sports person, a stage school graduate, or a 'performer' Harry Judd was a promising cricketer.

I repeat enough already

What a final!

Yes, moaners of Mark being there might be a little miffed to see him there, and it's true he's the weakest of the four finalists, but I believe Jake's standards will also become very apparent if he's there in the final. I am glad Mark at least appear to be well aware that he wasn't going to get further than the showdance and therefore seemed to just relax and enjoy the show with Karen Hauer for what it was worth. His cha-cha was cheesy as I first saw it but it was much improved. So well done, Mark.

Simon was a revelation in the final. Their AT was good the first time I saw it in Blackpool, but it was so much better in the final. I could feel that every fibre of his being was in that dance he did with K.ristina. No wonder K.ristina was so overwhelmed after the dance. Well deserved 40 there.

Frankie was my favourite from the start. Sad she wasn't able to perform her Wicked tango, for I suspect she'll probably get the perfect score for that number. But her showdance was very good in an old-school sort of way. The bench thing reminded me of sixteen-going-on-seventeen in the Sound of Music, I suspect that was the bit that she wanted to be in the choreography (I read somewhere she asked Kevin if that could be added into the choreography), and the most important thing was that she enjoyed the experience from the beginning to the end. I am so proud she did that Samba justice! Didn't see that coming, tbh. She had the bounce, using the floor to create hip actions etc.. Her Paso was always going to be a wow kind of the dance, and she kept her feet together as Karen Hardy said she should do when she reviewed her first attempt it early in the series. So even for Frankie I can see marked improvement since the start of the series.

Caroline was the well-deserved winner. I am no conspiracy theorist, and I believed when it came to showdance, they were given the freedom to choose the type of dance they wished to do. After all, Pasha did say it was her favourite track, and Pasha submitted it together with other songs she liked and the producers picked that one (probably because it was not much a problem to secure copyright fair use for that song for the final). I do think she deserved all the tens she got. I don't care she was supposed to be a ringer. She didn't hide this fact, even the BBC website revealed that she had some dance experience since day one. What's the problem with that? Kara and Jill both were trained dancers too, and they won the SCD for crying out loud!

I was at first worried when they wanted to do a contemporary styled rumba showdance. My thinking was, "Er, didn't they see how the judges slated Mark and Karen's arty-farty rumba in the semi-final???"

But they did it justice, by making sure there were a lot of proper rumba figures while adding those contemporary lifts (some of which were awe-inspiring). Slow song could be a danger for showdance, as I recalled a slow ballad was attempted by Lisa and B.rendan and it became classic SCD-turkey-dance in almost a literal sense. So kudos to them for having the balls to attempt to create art for their showdance, and succeeded so spectacularly in so doing!

Also, I am glad it Pasha was so supportive of Caroline from beginning till end. He was so versatile, and could create comedic routines like the Charleston, sexy-hot routine like their Salsa last week, and the cha-cha this week as well as moving, lyrical contemporary routines like their showdance. My man-crush of Pasha reached its peak in the final. It's infuriating and satisfying at the same time. He's what A.rtem wanted to be but will never be (A.rtem can't do comedy, while his arty-farty attempts oftentimes revolved flapping his arms abhat, and I can't get past his j.i.joe physique and that blindingly white radioactive teeth compared to Pasha's imperfect gap teeth)... Okay, I digressed. So glad Caroline and Pasha made SCD history for scoring perfect scores in all their final dances!!!

hatlady28 wrote:CC, I do understand that you want to see development......2 of the finalists went to stage school and took dance classes. Simon will have worked with choreographers as part of Blue, and will be ready for the long rehearsal hours. (like Alesha) People like to see dancing, not struggling.  We could have had the following list of celebs: Tim Wonnacott, Judy Murray (who was starting to get better), Sunetra (who probably would have won) Alison Hammond (in the final?) Scott, Greg Wallace, Jennifer Gibney.  No Jake, he went to stage school too. Thom did sport but was dead in the personality stakes.

You cut out all those with a good physical background.....as I say, sports people along with dancers would have to be excluded,(remember how light on his feet Austin Healey was? His jive had kicks, flicks and bounce,) you'll get gradual interesting progress, but probably no dancing (as separate from performance) until the 3rd or 4th week. All of Pixie's background did not save her.  For me that would be all on one level.  I like it when someone bursts out of the pack.  This year?  I didn't enjoy it, all on one note. No real surprises in the eliminations.  

Stage school contestants have been with us since the first season, Natasha is the ONLY winner who was not a sports person, a stage school graduate, or a 'performer'  Harry Judd was a promising cricketer.

I repeat enough already

Each celebrity comes with some useful quality that helps them in Strictly. True sportsmen have fitness on their side, actors/actresses have perhaps training in dance at school plus the ability to slip into character (needed for dances such as Charleston and Paso Doble), musicians come with a sense of rhythm and an ear for musicality and presenters have to be cool under pressure especially if doing live TV. So they all have something that helps them in some way but I will always draw the line at those with clear previous dance experience - that just waters down the whole point of the show for me.

A mixed bag of views, but interesting and entertaining. Since being honest opens a few doors, I'll add a little without fear of assasination. None of it really matters or changes anything anyway and it's the last real chance to have a good rant:D

Contemporary dance. A field of its own and decidedly not my favourite dance art. As D&P rightly states, Strictly's a ballroom show (and associated Latin is ballroom dance). Just a shame then that Mark's barefoot "poncing about" supposed rumba kept Jake out of a place in the final. He was never going to win and in fairness Mark took his dismissal in the right spirit (and his own ballroom was pretty decent), but to lose out to brazen contemporary dance was wrong, and for a ballroom baron like L en Goodman to vote for the barefoot shuffle over ballroom was a real cop-out to the producers whims (in my view). The public had to put then both in the D.O, but L en had the last word. Shame on him.  

I also, much as I have loved the Dirty Dancing film ever since it arrived (Lord, over twenty five years ago now!) would love to kick the butt of whoever put that circus-trick "ready-steady-go" lift into the limelight of dance.
Cartwheels, handstands and associated individual acrobatics have little real place in dance. Fred and Ginger managed to be the greatest ballroom dance act on the planet without any of it at all. If you think they were restricted to waltzes and foxtrots, or couldn't do swing lifts without them being acrobatics,  watch them do the Carioca in Flying down to Rio with not a cartwheel in sight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWb90-afKHw

Judges. At the risk of high unpopularity here (especially with C.C)
C raig is an over-critical failed ballet-dancing attention seeker who, if he thinks sixes and sevens (and even less occasionally) are fair marks, then the judging scale should be discussed and adjusted because his marks insult the intelligence of more knowledgable people. (D arcey surely knows what hands, arms and posture are all about, and L en knows ballroom inside out. B runo, I see as just entertainment. C.R.H should remember that one half of the dance partnership is professional and the other (the one being judges) a pure amateur. His marks out of ten should be judged on the latter, not the former, as the other judges seem to realise. He takes the pantomime villain role way too far and, whilst the producers no doubt love the controversy, it isn't very fair on the contestants. Jake's error in that daft Zorba dance got three 8's,,,and a 5 from C raig? A week or two back he gave Sunetra a 5 when she did little wrong. Frankie and Kevin's Rumba drew a 9 from L en and a 10 from B runo, C raig gave it a 7?

The point I am making is that there is something seriously amiss when one judge can consistently mark two three or four points below the others. Somewhere it ceases to be funny and makes me ask where the standards are set at. Sorry folks, but judging out of ten from professional judges should be within a mark of each other, not a cricket score. Tens, granted should be earned, but if so, given. Entertainment Strictly may be, but C raig is way out of cinque with the rest. It needs attention.

I think that's about it, ( I may be back for more later) so, er...Merry Christmas all and have a blast over the festive season.

Sports people have muscle control and muscle memory that is highly developed, exactly like dancers. Fitness is not the issue. Someone who did dance classes 16 years ago? CC, as I said SCD has never been without contestants with previous dance experience. You are asking for something that has never existed. Enjoy what they bring. Enjoy the choreography their pros can explore.

TANGOLERO wrote:

Judges. At the risk of high unpopularity here (especially with C.C)
C raig is an over-critical failed ballet-dancing attention seeker who, if he thinks sixes and sevens (and even less occasionally) are fair marks, then the judging scale should be discussed and adjusted because his marks insult the intelligence of more knowledgable people. (D arcey surely knows what hands, arms and posture are all about, and L en knows ballroom inside out. B runo, I see as just entertainment. C.R.H should remember that one half of the dance partnership is professional and the other (the one being judges) a pure amateur. His marks out of ten should be judged on the latter, not the former, as the other judges seem to realise. He takes the pantomime villain role way too far and, whilst the producers no doubt love the controversy, it isn't very fair on the contestants. Jake's error in that daft Zorba dance got three 8's,,,and a 5 from C raig? A week or two back he gave Sunetra a 5 when she did little wrong. Frankie and Kevin's Rumba drew a 9 from L en and a 10 from B runo, C raig gave it a 7?

The point I am making is that there is something seriously amiss when one judge can consistently mark two three or four points below the others. Somewhere it ceases to be funny and makes me ask where the standards are set at. Sorry folks, but judging out of ten from professional judges should be within a mark of each other, not a cricket score. Tens, granted should be earned, but if so, given. Entertainment Strictly may be, but C raig is way out of cinque with the rest. It needs attention.

I think that's about it, ( I may be back for more later) so, er...Merry Christmas all and have a blast over the festive season.

C.raig's marking style is totally different to the others but I'd say his marks are far more accurate than them. He keeps his ten paddle under wraps and uses it really frugally. That is sensible as L.en, B.runo and D.arcey have shelled out so many tens from halfway through the series it just leaves us puzzled as to what their favourite dance of the series was since they gave so many tens - that is wrong for me. Definitely, C.raig marks down the lesser dancers probably because he wants to do as much as he can to get rid of the dross early and his cutting remarks are fair enough in general as those tend to be more inspiring than airy-fairy remarks like 'You came out and gave it some welly'. Admittedly, sometimes he does go OTT with the insults but at least his views I'd say are the most valued as you can see how they react when he gives a rare ten.He also consistently marks the best dancers high for the opposite reasons. Honestly, Tangolero it is not so much C.raig's low marking but the others marking too high.

hatlady28 wrote:Sports people have muscle control and muscle memory that is highly developed, exactly like dancers.  Fitness is not the issue.  Someone who did dance classes 16 years ago?  CC, as I said SCD has never been without contestants with previous dance experience.  You are asking for something that has never existed.  Enjoy what they bring. Enjoy the choreography their pros can explore.

We all have our own aspirations for the show and we all look for different things in the celebs and for me I always root for ones that start with two left feet and wooden movement but blossom into passable dancers - that would be my dream winner. No harm in that - call me a romantic if you will but that is my ideals.

So going to finish with my Top 5 performances of the series:

1. Frankie and Kevin's Paso (the final version)

2. Simon and Kristina's Argentine Tango (the final version)

3. Caroline and Pasha's Charleston (theme week version)

4. Sunetra and Brendan's American Smooth

5. Jake and Janette's Salsa

(6. Everything of Trixie's - who knows, if in the final I'm sure some of their dances would have found their way higher up on my list).

Regarding trained dancers, I don't mind their inclusion in the program (as long there's no attempt to conceal it as Zoe did Caroline's on It Takes Two when Tim brought it up and all danced trained contestants are treated the same). I guess I tend to become more emotionally invested in those that start the show with relatively less experience / advantage though. But that's just me.

As for Showdances, I don't mind at all seeing something different, outside of the Ballroom / Latin realm. It's just Contemporary dance isn't my bag, never has been. But I'm open-minded otherwise. Bring on the tap, jazz, Bollywood, folk,  belly dance, moonwalk, vogueing  

Sid wrote:

As for Showdances, I don't mind at all seeing something different, outside of the Ballroom / Latin realm. It's just Contemporary dance isn't my bag, never has been. But I'm open-minded otherwise. Bring on the tap, jazz, Bollywood, folk,  belly dance, moonwalk, vogueing  

My favourite forms of dance are : Ballroom and associated Latin, Irish dance, Flamenco dance (individual) Spanish Folk and Ballet and tap-dance. I'd just love Sevillanas ( a very popular Spanish folk dance amongst all ages) to be introduced into Strictly. That would be something.

CaledonianCraig wrote: Honestly, Tangolero it is not so much C.raig's low marking but the others marking too high.

I still think you're missing my point C.C. It doesn't matter what level judges mark at as long as there's some sort of consistency. I would agree wholeheartedly if all the judges gave somebody a five. This sort of regularly argumentative marking from C raig wouldn't be allowed in any other form of competition. C raig would get the boot for being deliberately so far off the others. L en and the others argue with his comments and his marks yet still he persists in being different. It's that difference that I'm aiming at. It shouldn't happen. If they all give fives, sevens or tens in matters not if they are in agreement as to the performance, but they aren't and it's always C.R.H that is different. Either get rid of him for another more balanced judge or find another three C raigs. One thing or the other. That's my point. There is something way amiss in a four point difference out of ten in views between professionals in any judging and with C raig it happens far too often.

Sorry but if you are asking who gives the more accurate scores for me it would be C.raig so why should he be made to change to fall in line with the rest who distribute ten's like Christmas cards at Christmas. They give ten's even when untrained eyes see flaws in the dance and that is wrong. That is my gripe on their scoring. Besides the judges must surely offer their opinion in the scores. If C.raig is more tight with the marks then so be it as long as he is consistent.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sorry but if you are asking who gives the more accurate scores for me it would be C.raig so why should he be made to change to fall in line with the rest who distribute ten's like Christmas cards at Christmas. They give ten's even when untrained eyes see flaws in the dance and that is wrong. That is my gripe on their scoring. Besides the judges must surely offer their opinion in the scores. If C.raig is more tight with the marks then so be it as long as he is consistent.

But he isn't consistent with the others, is he C.C.? That's the whole point. The judging isn't balanced. I'm not just being awkward here, there are tens given sometimes that I think "No way", and in the fabu-u-lus darling one's case, fives of which I think the same. It makes the judging look amateurish and silly. These guys are there for fair play and to guide the public. If you think he marks to low, then get three like-minded judges on the panel with the fabu-u-lus darling one. A dance just cannot have a difference of three or four points unless there is something seriously wrong with some judgements.
I know we won't reach agreement, fair enough, but the show (and some contestants) is suffering from C raig's arrogance in my opinion. What incentive is he to entice anyone to enter Strictly?

TANGOLERO wrote:

But he isn't consistent with the others, is he C.C.? That's the whole point. The judging isn't balanced. I'm not just being awkward here, there are tens given sometimes that I think "No way", and in the fabu-u-lus darling one's case, fives of which I think the same. It makes the judging look amateurish and silly. These guys are there for fair play and to guide the public. If you think he marks to low, then get three like-minded judges on the panel with the fabu-u-lus darling one. A dance just cannot have a difference of three or four points unless there is something seriously wrong with some judgements.
I know we won't reach agreement, fair enough, but the show (and some contestants) is suffering from C raig's arrogance in my opinion. What incentive is he to entice anyone to enter Strictly?
 

Surely, his job is to judge each dance and not there to entice celebs onto the show. Stereo-typical or uniformed marks are all well and good but certainly not if we have tens then forced down our throat. That is my biggest gripe with the marking. I am merely saying his marks are the most realistic so would sooner just keep things as they are with the powers that be having a word with the other three to rein their scores in a bit. I mean do any of us know which dance of Caroline's the judges liked the best from the final? No - because they all got maximum marks. Sorry but if you were to pin each of them down each would have a favourite dance and so that dance and that one alone should have got the perfect ten.

True we aren't going to agree here as we both want different things from the judges - I want less tens and so C.raig's scores seem the better ones to me whilst you want balanced scoring which is fair enough provided you get the others to stop showering dancers in tens.

Just to add TANGOLERO I do feel we are both in the same camp in wanting better marking as at the moment we both think it is skew whiff. All we disagree on is who is in the wrong and when you think about it both parties are to blame. L.en, B.runo and D.arcey are at fault for over use of tens and soft soaping celebs at times whilst C.raig can be mean at times with his scores and be more cutting with his remarks.

Very interesting comments and views - i do tend to agee with CRH most of the time and think that the other judges do sometimes get their '10' paddles out too early in the series. I've been disappointed in L en this year overall as people have rightly pointed out it is a ballroom and latin contest and he hasn't always flown the right flag this year IMO - particularly over lifts etc - he could always be relied upon in the past but something has seemed very different this year. D arcey truly doesn't count for me - nothing constructive to say. Anyway - back to CRH - I realized that whatever dance Frankie Bridge did last night he was never going to give her a '10' -simple as that - I have commented further on the judges and the manipulation on the 'Highs and Lows' thread.

I quite enjoy contemporary dance in it's place - I really hated it as part of the regular dancing - when Mark and Karen were supposed to be doing a rhumba and it wasn't!!! However, in Showdance anything does go and they are free to do what they like. Over the years we have seen a hint of Bollywood from Ramps and KH and Louis Smith doing a very un ballroom and un latin he-man dance - I thought that last year's winner dance from Abby was boring and nothing new - just ballroom done to Guns and Roses!!! The best Showdance last year was Nathalie and A rtem with the Broadway style. Whilst Caroline and P asha's dance last night was not my actual favourite Showdance - I personally preferred both Simons and Frankies - It did have some skill in it and I admired them for having the guts to something different which worked with the audience and voters - it was a big risk and could have fallen flat.

Also - I know what you mean CD about P asha achieving more than A rtem overall - A rtem could not do comedy you are right, and some of his routines came across as self indulgent - however he was always getting bashed by L en for trying different things - L en has not bashed others in the same way this year - all part of the crazy unfathomable world of SCD