A Little Bit of Honesty.

TANGOLERO wrote:I'm reaching for the mouthwash at the very idea of speaking the words, but I just have to entertain the idea that, just like re-makes of classic films that work once then go stale when the money moguls try to expound a successful formula into a "live forever" shebang, the current format for Strictly has had its day. It's lost it way just like the golden age of popular music to the age of technology. Dancing with the wannabees and all the other off-shoots are no longer concerned with the core content of good dance and have sacrificed it in favour of the money-spinning world of "entertainment". Quality T.V has given way to anything that gets the ratings up. Just like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Bonfire Night, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Grandparent Day and all the other "Days" that can get hands in pockets and too much turkey, we've grown indulgent and lazy in our acceptance of any dross served up on five thousand Freeview Channels in the name of the said "Entertainment" because of an "eyes greedier than bellies world"..

In short, can it and start again......

 

For fear of causing offence, or even stating the bleeding obvious, surely the BBC will want to put the most popular show on in the prime slot of the week and if it gets the highest ratings then they have achieved what they set out to do.  And if it is still getting the highest ratings after 15ish years (sorry, can't remember when it started) then that's because the majority of the viewing public want to watch it.  Prime time TV on BBC1 isn't about quality, it's purely about entertainment.  BBC3 and BBC4 promote quality TV, and fair enough, but it's horses for courses isn't it??

Sid wrote:


But what was different about this series was the non-dancers could actually dance! There were no Christopher Parkers; Tameka, Lesley, Rindy, Ed, Laura, Daisy, Ore - none of them bad at all.

Sure, have a Louise or a Danny. But having both (and further, having the final reduced from 4 to 3 couples) means there's not much room at the end for the novice improvers which people like to see too.

Blast you Sid!

I was all ready to post a vitriolic comment (a one-off I assure you) about the use of the word "ringers" which drives me to distraction, and your very reasonable post has just taken the wind out of my sails! I know what you mean about the novice improvers, but I think that gives them an advantage if anything sometimes, Louis Smith over Denise Van Outen being a case in point. Good improvers can be beaten by less good improvers as well depending on public popularityl Chris Hollins over Ricky Whittle and Darren Gough over Colin Jackson for example.

However, as much as we enjoy seeing novice improvers, I love to see really, really good dancing, and for me, that's what Danny and Louise provide, especially Danny. Perhaps that's because I'm more familiar with stage dancing than ballroom, but there you are. It would be interesting to know how much of an idea the BBC casting department have of the celebs abilities before the competition starts. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a fair idea of Danny's talents, but did they know that Louise was going to be up there? Or Ore? Was he included just for cannon fodder? I wouldn't be surprised if Claudia was included because the last time they had a gymnast in the show, he won. As to having the final reduced from four to three contestants, well surely that's down to Will Young leaving. I think they always have enough for a three celeb final minimum, in case of injury, or just in Will's case deciding they've had enough.

It's been a great series and the high quality of novices have done much to make it so, but I still think that Danny or Louises' absence would have made it the poorer.

I know it's a difficult balance between getting complete novices,comedy act,no hopes and ringers! I'm sure the producers seek a big name and a few that can dance a bit in their line up each year. For me I like a mixture but not too many experienced people in. Forme the judges have a lot to answer for the last 2 series with erratic marking and very obvious favourites and the blatant underarm marking of certain couples,

Maybe if SCD tried 14 members of the public no dance experience for a series we might see a different competition. ... for me its just a which sibling will beat the other sibling to the glitter ball final.......

Haha soz Twirlie I'll troll you later so you can have a good rant!

They'll definitely research each celebrity carefully before picking them - and Louise's dance background was well known as she was a judge on the BBC's "So You Think You Can Dance" (it's on her Strictly profile too). At least with Louise though, there's been some sort of j.ourney because she's had to rediscover how to perform as well as execute.

I'm all of a quiver as I read the lively debate from today.............

I think that what I'm looking for in the show is a bit of balance - I fully realize that in order to keep the ratings up then a show needs to change and develop which is just what SCD has done over the years but I don't want things to stray to far from the fact that the show is about ballroom and latin American dancing  (putting aside the dance versus entertainment argument) and that means partner dancing - not solos - not side to side and not stage dancing.  Like all of us I've embraced the theme nights, put up with the introduction of props and with the gradual dumbing down  (yes I've got to say it) of many of the dances -  and in the main I thoroughly enjoy the spectacle and the concepts behind most of the dances  (despite some of the rubbish music)  but I don't want it to go any further into 'burn the floor' territory and with the retirement of L en I feel uncomfortable about the future direction of the show - therefore I'd like some 'safeguards' in place that no matter what bells and whistles they put in the show it will remain ostensibly about ballroom and latin American dance -  I want the new judge to be from the ballroom and latin American world - I want them to retain the 'rules' that only allow lifts in certain dances   (I was most concerned when I heard Oti saying on ITT last week that on the German show there are no such rules for any of the dances)  I want to see Foxtrots and Waltzes as much as I want to see Charlestons and I want latin music for latin dances.

To retain the balance I don't think it would hurt to temper the theme weeks with some 'technical' weeks, if there is not enough time in the show to do the two sets of marks suggested by Sax (which is a great idea).  I'm sure something like this would not have the viewers running for the hills!  GBP is now very knowledgeable about the dancing, I feel the production team feel like endless gimmicks are the only way to keep people  'entertained' (bit patronising really)  I feel that great dancing and great entertainment are not mutually exclusive -  why should we have one without the other????  I also think people would appreciate a better standard of music for some of the dances - who doesn't like good music whoever you are? Better music wouldn't harm the ratings surely. Lastly they need to look at creating some more excitement in the latter part of the contest by 'saving' some of the dances for later on and  being sparing with the '10s'.

As for the contestants I know that there has been the odd Rxxxxx (don't want to say it in case I set Twirlie off)  for years but they generally didn't used to win  (ref Denise Van Outen, Nathalie Gumede) however there are a tad too many now for my liking which prevent good novices from progressing -  again more 'balance' is needed. The fizz has gone out of  this year a bit - I blame Will Young   (not really ) but S id is right, Will had potential and would have created a bit more competition and also the prospect of a four couple final.  I think there were few 'poor' dancers this year, except possibly Melvin who is rewarded by coming back for the Xmas Special  (how did that happen )  and a lot of them lost out by being in the series this year with such a high standard being evident from early on - but that's the luck of the draw in some respects.

mauveangel09 wrote:(don't want to say it in case I set Twirlie off)

I feel I should clarify that when I use the R word I've never meant it literally in the sense the celebs with some form of training are "cheats" or anything. It's just that the term "dirty ringah" has been used for YEARS on Digital Spy and Twitter - in a jokey way - and I guess I started using it on here without thinking about it. It's not meant as a dig (usually!) and I've supported my fair share of dirty ringahs

All interesting points, most of which I fully agree with, but basing weeks on themes, especially show themes is probably the reason for drifting away from partner style ballroom dance. The West side Story spectacular by the pros shows this as a truth. Magnificent as spectacle dance, wrong as ballroom. "Deadwood Stage" was a shining example of something about as Yee-ha as you can get but ballroom? More bar-room. People tend to conveniently forget why strict-tempo was brought into existence. Ballroom's main standards, waltz, quickstep, foxtrot etc work on time signatures, 3/4, 4/4 etc, even 2/4, but unless the chosen number/record can be fitted to suit it's those always going to be doubly difficult for amateurs. Pros do as they are told, but who tells them what that is, Psy? Can anybody remember Fred and Ginger or Eleanor Powell, Cyd Charisse etc, doing cartwheels or handstands, even splits, I can't bring any to mind right this moment. Big problem is the die has been cast and Louis Smith and Claudia and their ilk do things that your Ed Balls level of dancers never can. There's equality out of the door right off and great expectations ruling the roost amongst the madding crowds.

In the latin area, I posted a clip the other day of Ricardo Montalban dancing a samba with Lana Turner that was stylish and pure partner dancing. More of that stuff please. Let's have some musical choices that aren't hip-hop or hokey Kokey and don't need a black belt in gymnastic Kung-Fu. Okay, wishful thinking it may be, b ut whatever is needed should be at least available to all levels and not just olympic athletes. Till that happens, how do you really define a ringer between Louis Smith and Russell Grant?

Where do we stop though? Those with previous experience in dance and training of dance will be accepted as winners by many with the old adage that they were the best dancers - very true but they were the very best before the series started as well. I mean do we now go one stage further and invite Tommy Steele as a celeb masquerading as a green celeb or Wayne Sleep? They'd end up winning as well leaving your Greg's and Judge's of this world who I believe the series was created for out in the cold.

Personally, I don't mind who they invite - you've got to have light and shade after all - but my main bugbear is (and has been for some time) that we are asked to judge a samba against a foxtrot and a charleston. Yes, they've got to include all of the dances but I much preferred when the ATs were saved for much later on, the VWs were all danced together and the charlestons were only available if you made it to week ten.

If you're going to have different standards of dance ability and differing ages then at least give them more of a level playing field with the dances each week. Whilst Judge Rinder was clearly the least accomplished dancer last week, I do feel he was stitched up with the samba. Had we been judging his foxtrot against Ore's rumba it might have been a different story.....

CaledonianCraig wrote:Where do we stop though? Those with previous experience in dance and training of dance will be accepted as winners by many with the old adage that they were the best dancers - very true but they were the very best before the series started as well. I mean do we now go one stage further and invite Tommy Steele as a celeb masquerading as a green celeb or Wayne Sleep? They'd end up winning as well leaving your Greg's and Judge's of this world who I believe the series was created for out in the cold.

 Tommy Steele wouldn't stand a chance these days I'm afraid. Despite the fact that he still performs continuously and doesn't look like retiring any time soon, he's 79. He's very careful about how he appears on-stage. He doesn't do much more than sway, making sure he has plenty of young dancers to dance around him (if it's that type of show). He still has the charisma to carry a show, but is careful to make sure he conserves his energy. He even tours a bed which he puts in one of the backstage dressing rooms so he can have a nap between matinée and evening performances. He plans his show weeks in advance so that when the rest of the cast arrive to start rehearsing, he's already at performance level. I doubt that he'd find rehearsing from scratch every week acceptable. He's still a great performer though.

Ooh I remember Oops what a picture! Tommy Steel. .. I think we all feel having difficult dances in the first 3 weeks ie AT, Paso, Charleston way too soon. You can't judge the celebs when 5 different dances are in one show . Week one let it be Waltz or a Quickstep or Samba and swop the couples over on second week. We all see the couples do the same dance. We can see the playing field more openly, different styles/techniques/flat feet/pigeon toes/motormouth/bucket hands/limp wrists etc etc.
As the weeks progress and skills develop we get to enjoy a good Jive/Tango/Paso /Charleston in the latter weeks
I'd like to ban props too save for prop week #getitoveranddonewith week

I heard rumours think Darcy advised L.en keen on an Australian female judge to replace him?

Twirlie wrote:

 Tommy Steele wouldn't stand a chance these days I'm afraid. Despite the fact that he still performs continuously and doesn't look like retiring any time soon, he's 79. He's very careful about how he appears on-stage. He doesn't do much more than sway, making sure he has plenty of young dancers to dance around him (if it's that type of show). He still has the charisma to carry a show, but is careful to make sure he conserves his energy. He even tours a bed which he puts in one of the backstage dressing rooms so he can have a nap between matinée and evening performances. He plans his show weeks in advance so that when the rest of the cast arrive to start rehearsing, he's already at performance level. I doubt that he'd find rehearsing from scratch every week acceptable. He's still a great performer though.

Okay Tommy was used as an example but point remains.

The great Strictly moments are seeing totally green dancers blossoming into something resembling a very good dancer. Moments like cricketer Michael Vaughan (from nowhere) pulling out a jaw-dropping Quickstep or watching others starting so wooden but rough edges being knocked off and them slowly being chiselled into dancers. Like I say watch Danny's week one dance now and you can't really differentiate from last week'd dance it was that polished - no fun in that. Sure if we are talking purely on best dancers then Danny should win but his background and progress made (or lack of) just totally takes the gloss off of it for me.

Others in this series have loved Ed Balls input but again he is another who, in the shows current format, has no chance of winning due to other reasons ie age/physical fitness/build and just those lack of final finesse. My point is it is all compartmentalized. Those that start with a clear head start (previous dance experience), the young fitter celebs with no previous dance experience, the older celebs with handicap of physical fitness issues and the court jester contenders there for the mocking. Sadly, I know it isn't possible but different categories should be formed for those in different categories so that everyone has a chance to win. That would be the ideal world but it won't happen.

I will continue watching and continue rooting for the genuine celebs that enter with no dance training/experience and go on that great learning curve dropping their wooden movement and pulling off a fleckle, who drop inhibitions and rise to the occasion and crack the latin dances etc. I can but dream.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
I will continue watching and continue rooting for the genuine celebs that enter with no dance training/experience and go on that great learning curve dropping their wooden movement and pulling off a fleckle, who drop inhibitions and rise to the occasion and crack the latin dances etc. I can but dream.

Do you know, C.raig, I think we will all continue watching and we will all (well, at least I know I will) continue rooting for the celebs who go on a j.ourney and we will all continue to grumble about the props and the theme weeks and the unlevel playing field but that's the beauty of Strictly.  Even though this hasn't been my favourite year, I'm still sad that we only have two weeks to go....

fiftynotout wrote:

Do you know, C.raig, I think we will all continue watching and we will all (well, at least I know I will) continue rooting for the celebs who go on a j.ourney and we will all continue to grumble about the props and the theme weeks and the unlevel playing field but that's the beauty of Strictly.  Even though this hasn't been my favourite year, I'm still sad that we only have two weeks to go....

Indeed. And when you think that there is around a nine month gap between series it certainly leaves room for something in between.

fiftynotout wrote:

Do you know, C.raig, I think we will all continue watching and we will all (well, at least I know I will) continue rooting for the celebs who go on a j.ourney and we will all continue to grumble about the props and the theme weeks and the unlevel playing field but that's the beauty of Strictly.  Even though this hasn't been my favourite year, I'm still sad that we only have two weeks to go....

.......and so it shall ever be

Never nice for anyone to be voted out by the public and the Lord High Executioners in tuxedos and party frock, but it surely will hurt the loser this week after getting so far, learning two dances and then being awarded the farewell foxtrot. Have to feel sorry for whoever it is because the standards have been pretty high and everybody has done eceptionally well all through the series. I'll wish good luck now to the famous four and say thanks whoever leaves for a good series of entertainment and effort. Personally I'm not really botheed now who wins although my own trier hero outside of the Premier League was Greg, who really gave it a go. Go for and may the best win. If I were a betting man....but no, I'll refrain....

On ITT tonight, Ian Waite seemed to think that Danny had problems getting to grips with his salsa. When interviewed themselves, Danny and Oti gave the impression that they were worried - seriously worried - about the lifts they have to do. Oti's a big girl. After a couple of weeks of being top of the leader board, could it all go tits-up for Danny and Oti with an early bath at the end of Sunday? Stranger things have happened.

I think the pressure is on for all four couples having to learn two dances each this week. I don't expect any of the performances will be as polished as usual (or maybe the choreography will just be a lot easier).

However, I still think Danny has lucked out. The AS can be such a beautiful dance and definitely has the possibility of having the wow factor when you include lifts. (And, of course, these can be as easy or complicated as Oti wants to make them.)

More than ever before, the result this weekend will depend on which dance and how well choreographed as well as how accomplished the performance is. Both members of each partnership need to pull out all the stops and impress the judges and the GBP. Will fortune favour the brave or will the winners be the ones who play it safe?

I was surprised that Danny hadn't started learning the second dance till Wednesday. Particularly as the AS that he's spent more time on, will have elements of the VW he's already done. I imagined they might have worked on one for half the day, and another later on in the day where possible. Even Ian said he'd advise not leaving the second dance to later in the week. In Danny's case, it doesn't leave much space to learn the new dance from scratch. The other's have been improving, and when you're settled at the top, it's hard to maintain that position and the only way is down.

I'm guessing compared to some of the others, Danny'll still manage to pull off a recognisable Salsa. Let's face it, the Strictly Salsas in general haven't been that outstanding, or is that just me? As fifty says, the lifts can be as easy or hard as Oti makes them. Karen H has said more than once that lifts don't belong in the Salsa. It just breaks the idealistic unbreakable rhythm. I just hope that the lifts (for all the celebs) suit the music and theme, and don't end up being a gratuitous lift-fest, and strong arm weightlifting, showdance contest.

I don't mind who wins now. Good luck to them all.

I'm more of a don't care who wins now viewer. I really haven't bonded with any of the remaining four enough. Both Louise and Danny I cannot recall a dance and I guess I'm guilty of switching off from them the last few weeks. Loved Ore to start with despite Miss Hyper active look at me I'm a Clifton too Joanne.... This leaves AJ and C.laudia who haven't bloomed fully. Also I'm sick of Tess holding her hand it makes for little girl look

I think I agree with all your comments - I think the pressure will be on for all four couples this weekend but particularly Danny - having been consistently at the top he has further to fall!! How many other dead certs for the final have burned out in the quarters or semis - as you say fifty -stranger things have happened, particularly when it is so close - I also agree that possibly the dances in general won't be so polished technically but they'll be going for 'performance' and everything round the edges will count this weekend from the order in which they dance to impact of the musical arrangements, the costumes and of course whether it all catches the imagination of GBP or not.

Of the training clips I've seen this week, Ore and Joanne look the most comfortable (with nothing to lose in a way) and I loved the clip that I saw of their AT training last night - can't wait to see that one.

I'm sure you're right that Danny will pull a salsa together but possibly it will be his own variety! Still think they have lucked out on those dances that both create a strong impression. I actually think Louise and K evin look the less comfortable - particularly with the samba, although that glorious music should help

I'm predicting Ore's A.T. will be Dance of the night on Saturday" The man can dance and he has the showstopper number. I'm also remembering Tom Chambers and his bombshell dance that blew the gaskets, and all four left are capable of fireworks. Anthing can happen. All depends who has worked hardest at practise. This is a battle of egos for the pros as well as the glory of winning the glitter ball, but they all have to get there first and right now the platform tickets are all first class. If none of them make eveident errors it will be a real nail-biter.

Really interesting comments everyone. I think I am looking forward more to this week than the final to be honest, because I'm not bothered who wins in the final. From what I've seen I think Ore will get the last place, but who knows we might get a shock dance off...fingers crossed

A spate of mischevious votes could easily see Danny and Louisa in the dance off. What a predicament for the judges that would be...